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The protest was organized by Jewish Voice for Peace... are you suggesting they're an anti-semitic group?

tptacek 3y ago
Many Jewish people do believe that, yes. JVP is not a mainstream group. They tread pretty close to the line on things like the Blood Libel in their rhetoric, and, in particular, in a long-term campaign they've run linking police violence in the US to Israel (a risible claim, for what it's worth). I'm not saying they're antisemitic. I'm not qualified to render that kind of judgement. You can easily argue that the ADL isn't either --- the ADL has problemicized itself in a bunch of ways too in the last few years. But you probably shouldn't be shocked when people make that claim; it's a common one.
- pcthrowaway 3y ago
  If people are arguing that a Jewish peace advocacy group is antisemitic, I think they've lost all conception of what that word means. They're using the word "antisemite" to mean anti-zionist or anti-Israel, or anti-occupation. "Anti-semitism" is a hatred of Jewish people or discriminatory attitudes towards them. There is a large contingency of Jewish people who believe Jews are better than other people (this idea is at least one of the beliefs underpinning the existence of Israel). Calling Jews who push back against this narrative anti-semitic is like calling white people who oppose white supremacy anti-white.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    There are lots of white anti-white racists, there are Black anti-Black racists, and there are indeed Jewish antisemites. You're adopting a position of shock and disbelief that (some) Jewish people find JVP problematic. I'm telling you: that's not helping the credibility of your argument, because this is an old, well-covered controversy, and the points that JVP's critics raise aren't superficial. You don't have to agree with them, but to suggest that those critics have "lost all conception" of what "antisemitism" means mostly suggests that you're unfamiliar with JVP. (I don't know what I believe about JVP! My confidence in any assessment is very low. What I do know, though, is that if I were doing persuasive work, like, say, getting a ceasefire resolution passed in my municipality, I would do my best to keep JVP's name off the enterprise.) For a clearer example of this phenomenon, unrelated to JVP, see Jewish Currents, also frequently cited in discussions to insulate arguments from accusations of antisemitism.
    - pcthrowaway 3y ago
      I'm curious about these white anti-white "racists" or black anti-black racists. I realize that people internalize racism in different ways so I definitely don't discount the idea that black people may conduct themselves in ways that demonstrate prejudice against black people, but I've heard never heard accusations that PoC solidarity groups represented by black people (which would be the closest example I can think of) are racist against black people. Perhaps a better example of what I think you're trying to communicate would be "trad-wives" who reinforce certain elements of the patriarchy. The prime difference between trad-wives and groups like JVP, I think, is that trad-wives advocate for trad-wifery because traditional gender roles appeal to their values or interests, rather than out of a sense of social justice and equity (which are likely not important to them). However, I'm not at all shocked that there are Jewish people who find JVP problematic, and I'm not sure where you got that idea. I'd guess something like 50% of practicing Jews in the diaspora hold beliefs that Jews are intrinsically better than non-jews, and perhaps a sizeable minority of non-practicing Jews as well. This is based on my own experiences growing up in a Jewish community as well as the arguments used by Zionist Jews in support of Israel. The Jewish school I went to literally taught that Jews had a more legitimate claim to peace and safety in Israel than the Palestinians, by virtue of being the chosen people. Reducing all criticism of the ethno-state that results from such beliefs to anti-semitism is an underhanded tactic that twists the meaning of the word in order to manipulate public opinion. I don't know too much about JVP as they don't have presence in my country, but I just did some reading (including their core values[1] which are far from anti-semitic) and found a lot of the same tired arguments: their "admin" lives in lebanon (not said: one of 18 admins on their facebook page), it's a front for non-Jewish antisemites to rally under the banner of Jewishness (not said: their board and leadership are all Jewish), they said "XYZ" which can be interpreted as antisemitic (not said: either an anti-semitic person or even a plant said something while claiming to represent the group, or what was said was a criticism of mainstream Jewish Zionism taken out of context) Add to that a lot of the same criticisms typically levied at leftist groups, some of which may actually be good-faith, fair criticisms, but unrelated to anti-semitism. I certainly agree there can be Jewish anti-semites, but they're much more likely to gravitate to the right than the left. [1]: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/about/#mandate https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/about/#mandate edit: I'll say this one additional thing: I've personally observed a high correlation between Jews who call anti-Zionist advocates anti-semitic, and Jews who secretly or not-so-secretly have a belief that Jewish people are inherently better than non-Jews (and for many this goes down to ethnicity, I'm not talking just about spiritual practice). To me, it seems like they're generally oblivious to how similar beliefs (by any group that holds them) are a type of problematic prejudice, and critical of leftist Jews because they represent a threat to those deeply-held beliefs of supremacy.
- dtornabene 3y ago
  "Many Jewish people" according to....who, you? Seriously! Who is the "many Jewish people"??! Do you regularly poll the jewish diaspora? Israel? Specifically on the collective jewish opinions of JVP? Man if I wanted to write up an example breakdown on how to structure a weasel word contradiction ridden filled post I could start a lot worse than here! "They tread pretty close to the line on things like the Blood Libel in their rhetoric" sure seems like something I'd want to substantiate! Claiming one of the most venerable peace organizations in American Jewish communal life is "treading the line on Blood Libel" (love that capitalization, great stuff) is disgusting, full stop. Maybe if you recognize that you're "not qualified to render that judgement" you should....not do it. Which is exactly what a cowardly "they come close to blood libel" type of a claim is. A claim about antisemitism. Really really gross and frankly beggars belief that you, a gentile, who is a self-professed catholic (I've been on this board almost as long as you have homie, and up until recently I read your posts with interest) feels the need to accuse a bunch of pacifist jews of capital B capital L Blood Libel. As for US police training in Israel, once again, you show your own profound ignorance, or outright dishonesty, by stating this is a "risible" claim. US police training in Israel has been well documented, and pretending that there aren't any carryover effects of that training is itself the "risible" claim. https://www.amnestyusa.org/updates/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/updates/with-whom-are-many-u-s-po...
gataca 3y ago
this group has many non-jewish members and is used a fig-leaf by notorious antisemites to agitate for the genocide of the only minority state in the Middle East. it's like saying Clarence Thomas can't promote anti-black racism since he's black himself.
r00fus 3y ago
The modern definition of anti-semitism by zionists is: "not pro zionist".
- pcthrowaway 3y ago
  Yeah, and when following this logic to its conclusion you end up aligning with actual literal anti-semites in the alt-right like Richard Spencer, who loves Israel[1] as an exemplary model of what a white ethno-nationalist state should aspire to be. [1]: https://www.newsweek.com/white-supremacist-richard-spencer-fan-israels-nation-state-law-1036518 https://www.newsweek.com/white-supremacist-richard-spencer-f...

Many Jewish people do believe that, yes. JVP is not a mainstream group. They tread pretty close to the line on things like the Blood Libel in their rhetoric, and, in particular, in a long-term campaign they've run linking police violence in the US to Israel (a risible claim, for what it's worth). I'm not saying they're antisemitic. I'm not qualified to render that kind of judgement. You can easily argue that the ADL isn't either --- the ADL has problemicized itself in a bunch of ways too in the last few years. But you probably shouldn't be shocked when people make that claim; it's a common one.

pcthrowaway 3y ago
If people are arguing that a Jewish peace advocacy group is antisemitic, I think they've lost all conception of what that word means. They're using the word "antisemite" to mean anti-zionist or anti-Israel, or anti-occupation. "Anti-semitism" is a hatred of Jewish people or discriminatory attitudes towards them. There is a large contingency of Jewish people who believe Jews are better than other people (this idea is at least one of the beliefs underpinning the existence of Israel). Calling Jews who push back against this narrative anti-semitic is like calling white people who oppose white supremacy anti-white.
- tptacek 3y ago
  There are lots of white anti-white racists, there are Black anti-Black racists, and there are indeed Jewish antisemites. You're adopting a position of shock and disbelief that (some) Jewish people find JVP problematic. I'm telling you: that's not helping the credibility of your argument, because this is an old, well-covered controversy, and the points that JVP's critics raise aren't superficial. You don't have to agree with them, but to suggest that those critics have "lost all conception" of what "antisemitism" means mostly suggests that you're unfamiliar with JVP. (I don't know what I believe about JVP! My confidence in any assessment is very low. What I do know, though, is that if I were doing persuasive work, like, say, getting a ceasefire resolution passed in my municipality, I would do my best to keep JVP's name off the enterprise.) For a clearer example of this phenomenon, unrelated to JVP, see Jewish Currents, also frequently cited in discussions to insulate arguments from accusations of antisemitism.
  - pcthrowaway 3y ago
    I'm curious about these white anti-white "racists" or black anti-black racists. I realize that people internalize racism in different ways so I definitely don't discount the idea that black people may conduct themselves in ways that demonstrate prejudice against black people, but I've heard never heard accusations that PoC solidarity groups represented by black people (which would be the closest example I can think of) are racist against black people. Perhaps a better example of what I think you're trying to communicate would be "trad-wives" who reinforce certain elements of the patriarchy. The prime difference between trad-wives and groups like JVP, I think, is that trad-wives advocate for trad-wifery because traditional gender roles appeal to their values or interests, rather than out of a sense of social justice and equity (which are likely not important to them). However, I'm not at all shocked that there are Jewish people who find JVP problematic, and I'm not sure where you got that idea. I'd guess something like 50% of practicing Jews in the diaspora hold beliefs that Jews are intrinsically better than non-jews, and perhaps a sizeable minority of non-practicing Jews as well. This is based on my own experiences growing up in a Jewish community as well as the arguments used by Zionist Jews in support of Israel. The Jewish school I went to literally taught that Jews had a more legitimate claim to peace and safety in Israel than the Palestinians, by virtue of being the chosen people. Reducing all criticism of the ethno-state that results from such beliefs to anti-semitism is an underhanded tactic that twists the meaning of the word in order to manipulate public opinion. I don't know too much about JVP as they don't have presence in my country, but I just did some reading (including their core values[1] which are far from anti-semitic) and found a lot of the same tired arguments: their "admin" lives in lebanon (not said: one of 18 admins on their facebook page), it's a front for non-Jewish antisemites to rally under the banner of Jewishness (not said: their board and leadership are all Jewish), they said "XYZ" which can be interpreted as antisemitic (not said: either an anti-semitic person or even a plant said something while claiming to represent the group, or what was said was a criticism of mainstream Jewish Zionism taken out of context) Add to that a lot of the same criticisms typically levied at leftist groups, some of which may actually be good-faith, fair criticisms, but unrelated to anti-semitism. I certainly agree there can be Jewish anti-semites, but they're much more likely to gravitate to the right than the left. [1]: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/about/#mandate https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/about/#mandate edit: I'll say this one additional thing: I've personally observed a high correlation between Jews who call anti-Zionist advocates anti-semitic, and Jews who secretly or not-so-secretly have a belief that Jewish people are inherently better than non-Jews (and for many this goes down to ethnicity, I'm not talking just about spiritual practice). To me, it seems like they're generally oblivious to how similar beliefs (by any group that holds them) are a type of problematic prejudice, and critical of leftist Jews because they represent a threat to those deeply-held beliefs of supremacy.
dtornabene 3y ago
"Many Jewish people" according to....who, you? Seriously! Who is the "many Jewish people"??! Do you regularly poll the jewish diaspora? Israel? Specifically on the collective jewish opinions of JVP? Man if I wanted to write up an example breakdown on how to structure a weasel word contradiction ridden filled post I could start a lot worse than here! "They tread pretty close to the line on things like the Blood Libel in their rhetoric" sure seems like something I'd want to substantiate! Claiming one of the most venerable peace organizations in American Jewish communal life is "treading the line on Blood Libel" (love that capitalization, great stuff) is disgusting, full stop. Maybe if you recognize that you're "not qualified to render that judgement" you should....not do it. Which is exactly what a cowardly "they come close to blood libel" type of a claim is. A claim about antisemitism. Really really gross and frankly beggars belief that you, a gentile, who is a self-professed catholic (I've been on this board almost as long as you have homie, and up until recently I read your posts with interest) feels the need to accuse a bunch of pacifist jews of capital B capital L Blood Libel. As for US police training in Israel, once again, you show your own profound ignorance, or outright dishonesty, by stating this is a "risible" claim. US police training in Israel has been well documented, and pretending that there aren't any carryover effects of that training is itself the "risible" claim. https://www.amnestyusa.org/updates/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/updates/with-whom-are-many-u-s-po...

gataca 3y ago

this group has many non-jewish members and is used a fig-leaf by notorious antisemites to agitate for the genocide of the only minority state in the Middle East. it's like saying Clarence Thomas can't promote anti-black racism since he's black himself.

r00fus 3y ago

The modern definition of anti-semitism by zionists is: "not pro zionist".

pcthrowaway 3y ago
Yeah, and when following this logic to its conclusion you end up aligning with actual literal anti-semites in the alt-right like Richard Spencer, who loves Israel[1] as an exemplary model of what a white ethno-nationalist state should aspire to be. [1]: https://www.newsweek.com/white-supremacist-richard-spencer-fan-israels-nation-state-law-1036518 https://www.newsweek.com/white-supremacist-richard-spencer-f...