4 ms·

A brief, weird history of brainwashing

35 points by EndXA 2y ago

neonate 2y ago
https://archive.ph/Ouf3s https://archive.ph/Ouf3s https://web.archive.org/web/20240417001318/https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/04/12/1090726/brainwashing-mind-control-history-operation-midnight-climax/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240417001318/https://www.techn...
jampekka 2y ago
About a fifth of the economic activity in the USA is brainwashing. And quite a bit of other activity, such as most consumer internet services, exist to facilitate this brainwashing.
- Isamu 2y ago
  Hey I’d love to hear more, if only you could provide something that backs up your claim.
  - jampekka 2y ago
    Here's the industry's claim. Of course, given the nature of the industry, it's probably misleading at best and intended to alter your thinking to align better with their interests. https://www.ana.net/content/show/id/37679 https://www.ana.net/content/show/id/37679
    - smugglerFlynn 2y ago
      Just to be clear, what you claim is actually two things: - advertising is ~1/5th of US economy (backed with facts) - all advertising is brainwashing (your personal opinion)
      - spencerflem 2y ago
        That's the entire point, right? Pay money to an ad agency and they will affect the thoughts of your target demographic. Maybe its benign brainwashing, or you'd choose a different word because brainwashing has a lot of connotations. But that is factually what it's trying to do
        card_zero 2y ago
        That's also factually what you're trying to do right now, and what I'm trying to do back at you, but maybe we should call it "communicating" in this instance. Because brainwashing has a lot of connotations. That don't apply. You see.
        spencerflem 2y ago
        fine- here's two more ways it fits: advertising is non-consensual, almost everyone would rather not see ads and not internalize its ideas advertising is precise and scientific, it is done by powerful groups at large scale and truthfully, if this comment was part of an astroturfing campaign by an agency if have no problem calling it a brainwashing attempt. or call it something else, its all semantics. murder if you're mad, loss of life if you're not sort of thing
        card_zero 2y ago
        The article says "mind clearing and reprogramming" is the sense we all usually think of, and that doesn't apply to advertising, even if it's totally dishonest like astroturfing. So although we could agree to call it brainwashing now we've established what we mean, in conversation with a general audience, we shouldn't, because that would be misleading. But anyway, it's been nice brainwashing with you today, I'm glad we had this opportunity to brainwash each other.
        ninju 2y ago
        > advertising is non-consensual, almost everyone would rather not see ads and not internalize its ideas Advertising, by product producers, on media platforms serves a purpose of informing the customers of what is available for purchase. At times I will watch over the air TV, or other FAST streaming services, just to keep aware of what is new in the marketplaces
- paulddraper 2y ago
  (Tongue in cheek reference to marketing/advertising.)
  - jampekka 2y ago
    No tongue in cheek.
  - mgkimsal 2y ago
    Whose tongue? And whose cheek?
  - joeamroo 2y ago
    paul draper, is this normative determinism?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
ysofunny 2y ago
there's a fine line between brainwashing, propaganda, and meaningful communication which motivates and drives us (and ideals and so on)
- slowhadoken 2y ago
  Isn’t that the point of irregular warfare though? To blur those fine lines via disinformation and infighting.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
Tistel 2y ago
Peter Schweizer's great book Blood Money goes into the current state of the art with TikTok (and a bunch of other stuff).
- jampekka 2y ago
  Peter Schweizer's job is to brainwash the populace. The book is part of that job.
  - rufugee 2y ago
    Explain?
- fakeart 2y ago
  Excellent book.
Phiwise_ 2y ago
>But Hunter wasn’t just a reporter, objectively chronicling conditions in China. As he told the assembled senators, he was also an anticommunist activist who served as a propagandist for the OSS, or Office of Strategic Services—something that was considered normal and patriotic at the time. His reporting blurred the line between fact and political mythology. Err...: http://jmc.stanford.edu/commentary/progress/venona.html http://jmc.stanford.edu/commentary/progress/venona.html I get that expecting truly quality research work from Technology Review is an eggs-in-moonshine level fantasy, but it'd be nice to employ literally one editor who has read literally any of MIT's greatest researchers with all the ivy league cash they spend on fancy robots or buildings or whatever else.
082349872349872 3y ago
Compare the use of RLF's lines in Telefon (1977) as an example of The Paranoid Style in American Po^H^HCinema: The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep. [that said, The President's Analyst (1967) is a much better flick]
peter_d_sherman 3y ago
SNL's Stefon character on this article: "This one has everything: AI, ALAMY, America, American, American GIs, American Mind, Annalee Newitz, Atlanta, Birkbeck, Brain, Brainwashed, Brainwashing, Buddhist, California, Canadians, Catholics, Central Intelligence Agency, China, Chinese, Church Committee, CIA, Cold War, Colin Dickey, Communists, Confucian, Cybernetics, Dark Persuasion, David Seed, Dianetics, Dickey, Dimsdale, Donald Cameron, Douglas Fields, Dwight D Eisenhower, Edward Hunter, For Liang, Frank Schwable, Frank Sinatra, Hidden Persuaders, Hikvision, Homeland Security, Hong Kong, Hong Kong University, Hungarian, Intelligence Activities, Iron Curtain, Ivan Pavlov, Joel Dimsdale, Joost Meerloo, Juliette Kayyem, Kathleen Taylor, Korea, Korean War, L. Ron Hubbard, Lavrentiy Beria, Liang Qichao, Liverpool, London, LSD, Marcia Holmes, Maryland, McGill University, Meerloo, Merrill Root, Military, Mindszenty, Mitchell, MK-Ultra, Montreal, Myth, National Portrait Gallery, National Security Council, Nature, Norbert Wiener, NSC, Online, Operation Midnight Climax, Operations Coordinating Board, OSS, Other, Over, Patty Hearst, Pavlov, Policy, POW's, Power, Psychological Warfare, Psychopolitics, Quanta, Red China, Republic, Russians, Ryan Mitchell, San Diego San Francisco, Scientists, Scientology, Secret Societies, Senator Frank Church, Shirley Chong, Sidney Gottlieb, Soviet Union, State, Stories Are Weapons, Strategic Services, Study Governmental Operations, Symbionese Liberation Army, The Dutch, The Manchurian Candidate, The Science, They, Thought Control, Time Magazine, Today, Tom Burrell, UCSD, United States, University, US, US Senate, US Senate Select Committee, Wayne Williams, West, Western, Wikimedia Commons, William Randolph Hearst, World War III, Worried, Xinjiang, You..." :-) <g> :-) https://www.google.com/search?q=snl+stefon https://www.google.com/search?q=snl+stefon Disclaimer: Submitted for comedy purposes only! :-) <g> :-) Related (how I generated the above word list from the article text): https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/671487/grep-to-extract-unique-capitalized-phrases https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/671487/grep-to-extr...
Modified3019 3y ago
If you want to see effective brainwashing, you need to look for instances where Pavlovian conditioning and enhanced states of suggestion (essentially “hypnosis”, but think of the clinical definition, rather than stage performance tropes) are combined over the course of years in a way that self reinforces the thoughts to be held. Works best when the person is offered something that they think they need (validation, community, sexual release, security) and if the person is already or can be isolated from interfering peers. Basically look at what cults do, though it doesn’t even need a machiavellian mastermind involved, people can and will accomplish the same largely by their own initiative. This is what happens when you get online communities radicalizing themselves.
- janalsncm 2y ago
  A simpler example is to look at advertisements, which are a more acceptable form of propaganda. For example TV ads. A lot of what they say is a kind of fuzzy forgettable nonsense, but really pay attention to the underlying message of the ad and the techniques they use.
2devnull 3y ago
The author seems not merely uninformed but a mix of unaware and unconcerned that they don’t know what they’re talking about. No discussion of hypnosis, Stockholm syndrome, and a general vibe that psychology is like not really a thing unless it coincides with cherished narratives. And then little chestnuts like, “the idea of brainwashing continues to be a powerful metaphor for the effects of systemic racism.” Say what?
- monkeydreams 3y ago
  The article literally refers to the case for which Stockholm Syndrome is named and offers a simple explanation; that torture and privation work to align a person's goals and motivations to minimise pain. I'm not sure what you are finding so contentious about this article. We have accepted that people under torture will admit to anything for centuries.
  - neild 2y ago
    The article doesn't refer to that incident, so far as I can see. It does mention Patty Hearst, who was kidnapped a year after the Stockholm bank robbery. The term "Stockholm Syndrome" originates from a police consultant inventing a syndrome to diagnose a woman he had never met, in order to discredit her criticism of the largely incompetent police response to her and several other people being taken hostage by a bank robber. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stockholm-syndrome-meaning-bank-robbery-b2399531.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stockholm-...
    - pessimizer 2y ago
      They just did a documentary on the bank robbery, and as you watch it you get "Stockholm Syndrome," too. The West is just addicted to narratives of mind control and bewitchment, and people are easily convinced that any deviation from the designated norm is the result of evil forces taking control of people's wills through mysterious methods. Africa has a very similar problem. Where Anglo-Europeans think that all deviant behavior is caused by mind control (by demons, Jews, Russians, alcohol, marijuana, the Chinese, Cambridge Analytics, etc.), large parts of Africa believe that all illness is the result of curses. When somebody gets sick and dies, they start looking for witches to kill.

35 points by EndXA 2y ago

https://archive.ph/Ouf3s https://archive.ph/Ouf3s https://web.archive.org/web/20240417001318/https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/04/12/1090726/brainwashing-mind-control-history-operation-midnight-climax/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240417001318/https://www.techn...

jampekka 2y ago

About a fifth of the economic activity in the USA is brainwashing. And quite a bit of other activity, such as most consumer internet services, exist to facilitate this brainwashing.

Isamu 2y ago
Hey I’d love to hear more, if only you could provide something that backs up your claim.
- jampekka 2y ago
  Here's the industry's claim. Of course, given the nature of the industry, it's probably misleading at best and intended to alter your thinking to align better with their interests. https://www.ana.net/content/show/id/37679 https://www.ana.net/content/show/id/37679
  - smugglerFlynn 2y ago
    Just to be clear, what you claim is actually two things: - advertising is ~1/5th of US economy (backed with facts) - all advertising is brainwashing (your personal opinion)
    - spencerflem 2y ago
      That's the entire point, right? Pay money to an ad agency and they will affect the thoughts of your target demographic. Maybe its benign brainwashing, or you'd choose a different word because brainwashing has a lot of connotations. But that is factually what it's trying to do
      - card_zero 2y ago
        That's also factually what you're trying to do right now, and what I'm trying to do back at you, but maybe we should call it "communicating" in this instance. Because brainwashing has a lot of connotations. That don't apply. You see.
        spencerflem 2y ago
        fine- here's two more ways it fits: advertising is non-consensual, almost everyone would rather not see ads and not internalize its ideas advertising is precise and scientific, it is done by powerful groups at large scale and truthfully, if this comment was part of an astroturfing campaign by an agency if have no problem calling it a brainwashing attempt. or call it something else, its all semantics. murder if you're mad, loss of life if you're not sort of thing
        card_zero 2y ago
        The article says "mind clearing and reprogramming" is the sense we all usually think of, and that doesn't apply to advertising, even if it's totally dishonest like astroturfing. So although we could agree to call it brainwashing now we've established what we mean, in conversation with a general audience, we shouldn't, because that would be misleading. But anyway, it's been nice brainwashing with you today, I'm glad we had this opportunity to brainwash each other.
        ninju 2y ago
        > advertising is non-consensual, almost everyone would rather not see ads and not internalize its ideas Advertising, by product producers, on media platforms serves a purpose of informing the customers of what is available for purchase. At times I will watch over the air TV, or other FAST streaming services, just to keep aware of what is new in the marketplaces
paulddraper 2y ago
(Tongue in cheek reference to marketing/advertising.)
- jampekka 2y ago
  No tongue in cheek.
- mgkimsal 2y ago
  Whose tongue? And whose cheek?
- joeamroo 2y ago
  paul draper, is this normative determinism?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

ysofunny 2y ago

there's a fine line between brainwashing, propaganda, and meaningful communication which motivates and drives us (and ideals and so on)

slowhadoken 2y ago
Isn’t that the point of irregular warfare though? To blur those fine lines via disinformation and infighting.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

Tistel 2y ago

Peter Schweizer's great book Blood Money goes into the current state of the art with TikTok (and a bunch of other stuff).

jampekka 2y ago
Peter Schweizer's job is to brainwash the populace. The book is part of that job.
- rufugee 2y ago
  Explain?
fakeart 2y ago
Excellent book.

Phiwise_ 2y ago

>But Hunter wasn’t just a reporter, objectively chronicling conditions in China. As he told the assembled senators, he was also an anticommunist activist who served as a propagandist for the OSS, or Office of Strategic Services—something that was considered normal and patriotic at the time. His reporting blurred the line between fact and political mythology. Err...: http://jmc.stanford.edu/commentary/progress/venona.html http://jmc.stanford.edu/commentary/progress/venona.html I get that expecting truly quality research work from Technology Review is an eggs-in-moonshine level fantasy, but it'd be nice to employ literally one editor who has read literally any of MIT's greatest researchers with all the ivy league cash they spend on fancy robots or buildings or whatever else.

082349872349872 3y ago

Compare the use of RLF's lines in Telefon (1977) as an example of The Paranoid Style in American Po^H^HCinema: The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep. [that said, The President's Analyst (1967) is a much better flick]

peter_d_sherman 3y ago

SNL's Stefon character on this article: "This one has everything: AI, ALAMY, America, American, American GIs, American Mind, Annalee Newitz, Atlanta, Birkbeck, Brain, Brainwashed, Brainwashing, Buddhist, California, Canadians, Catholics, Central Intelligence Agency, China, Chinese, Church Committee, CIA, Cold War, Colin Dickey, Communists, Confucian, Cybernetics, Dark Persuasion, David Seed, Dianetics, Dickey, Dimsdale, Donald Cameron, Douglas Fields, Dwight D Eisenhower, Edward Hunter, For Liang, Frank Schwable, Frank Sinatra, Hidden Persuaders, Hikvision, Homeland Security, Hong Kong, Hong Kong University, Hungarian, Intelligence Activities, Iron Curtain, Ivan Pavlov, Joel Dimsdale, Joost Meerloo, Juliette Kayyem, Kathleen Taylor, Korea, Korean War, L. Ron Hubbard, Lavrentiy Beria, Liang Qichao, Liverpool, London, LSD, Marcia Holmes, Maryland, McGill University, Meerloo, Merrill Root, Military, Mindszenty, Mitchell, MK-Ultra, Montreal, Myth, National Portrait Gallery, National Security Council, Nature, Norbert Wiener, NSC, Online, Operation Midnight Climax, Operations Coordinating Board, OSS, Other, Over, Patty Hearst, Pavlov, Policy, POW's, Power, Psychological Warfare, Psychopolitics, Quanta, Red China, Republic, Russians, Ryan Mitchell, San Diego San Francisco, Scientists, Scientology, Secret Societies, Senator Frank Church, Shirley Chong, Sidney Gottlieb, Soviet Union, State, Stories Are Weapons, Strategic Services, Study Governmental Operations, Symbionese Liberation Army, The Dutch, The Manchurian Candidate, The Science, They, Thought Control, Time Magazine, Today, Tom Burrell, UCSD, United States, University, US, US Senate, US Senate Select Committee, Wayne Williams, West, Western, Wikimedia Commons, William Randolph Hearst, World War III, Worried, Xinjiang, You..." :-) <g> :-) https://www.google.com/search?q=snl+stefon https://www.google.com/search?q=snl+stefon Disclaimer: Submitted for comedy purposes only! :-) <g> :-) Related (how I generated the above word list from the article text): https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/671487/grep-to-extract-unique-capitalized-phrases https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/671487/grep-to-extr...

Modified3019 3y ago

If you want to see effective brainwashing, you need to look for instances where Pavlovian conditioning and enhanced states of suggestion (essentially “hypnosis”, but think of the clinical definition, rather than stage performance tropes) are combined over the course of years in a way that self reinforces the thoughts to be held. Works best when the person is offered something that they think they need (validation, community, sexual release, security) and if the person is already or can be isolated from interfering peers. Basically look at what cults do, though it doesn’t even need a machiavellian mastermind involved, people can and will accomplish the same largely by their own initiative. This is what happens when you get online communities radicalizing themselves.

janalsncm 2y ago
A simpler example is to look at advertisements, which are a more acceptable form of propaganda. For example TV ads. A lot of what they say is a kind of fuzzy forgettable nonsense, but really pay attention to the underlying message of the ad and the techniques they use.

2devnull 3y ago

The author seems not merely uninformed but a mix of unaware and unconcerned that they don’t know what they’re talking about. No discussion of hypnosis, Stockholm syndrome, and a general vibe that psychology is like not really a thing unless it coincides with cherished narratives. And then little chestnuts like, “the idea of brainwashing continues to be a powerful metaphor for the effects of systemic racism.” Say what?

monkeydreams 3y ago
The article literally refers to the case for which Stockholm Syndrome is named and offers a simple explanation; that torture and privation work to align a person's goals and motivations to minimise pain. I'm not sure what you are finding so contentious about this article. We have accepted that people under torture will admit to anything for centuries.
- neild 2y ago
  The article doesn't refer to that incident, so far as I can see. It does mention Patty Hearst, who was kidnapped a year after the Stockholm bank robbery. The term "Stockholm Syndrome" originates from a police consultant inventing a syndrome to diagnose a woman he had never met, in order to discredit her criticism of the largely incompetent police response to her and several other people being taken hostage by a bank robber. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stockholm-syndrome-meaning-bank-robbery-b2399531.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stockholm-...
  - pessimizer 2y ago
    They just did a documentary on the bank robbery, and as you watch it you get "Stockholm Syndrome," too. The West is just addicted to narratives of mind control and bewitchment, and people are easily convinced that any deviation from the designated norm is the result of evil forces taking control of people's wills through mysterious methods. Africa has a very similar problem. Where Anglo-Europeans think that all deviant behavior is caused by mind control (by demons, Jews, Russians, alcohol, marijuana, the Chinese, Cambridge Analytics, etc.), large parts of Africa believe that all illness is the result of curses. When somebody gets sick and dies, they start looking for witches to kill.