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Everything is soldered in these days. It's complete garbage. And most of the other vendors just copy Apple so even things like Lenovo have the same problems.

Everything is soldered in these days. It's complete garbage. And most of the other vendors just copy Apple so even things like Lenovo have the same problems. The current state of laptops is such trash

sva_ 3y ago
Plenty of laptops still have SO-DIMM, such as EliteBook for example. People need to vote with their wallet, and not buy stuff that goes against their principles.
- popf1 3y ago
  There are so many variables though ... most of the time you have to compromise on a few things.
- GeekyBear 3y ago
  With SO-DIMM you gain expandability at the cost of higher power draw and latency as well as lower throughput. > SO-DIMM memory is inherently slower than soldered memory. Moreover, considering the fact that SO-DIMM has a maximum speed of 6,400MHz means that it won’t be able to handle the DDR6 standard, which is already in the works. https://fossbytes.com/camm2-ram-standard/ https://fossbytes.com/camm2-ram-standard/
- kristopolous 3y ago
  There needs to be more fidelity than "vote with wallet". Let's say I decided to not purchase your product. Why? The question remains unanswered. Perhaps I didn't see it for sale or Bob in accounting just got one and I didn't want to look like I was copying Bob. Even at scale this doesn't work. Let's say Lenovo switches to making all of their laptops hot pink with bedazzled rhinestone butterflies and sales plummet. You could argue it was the wrong pink or that the butterflies didn't shimmer enough ... any hypothesis you wish. The market provides an extremely low information poor signal that really doesn't suggest any course of action. If we really want something better, there needs to be more fruitful and meaningful communication lines. I've come up with various ideas over the years but haven't really implemented them.
  - qeternity 3y ago
    You misunderstand the signal. The signal is “you’re doing something wrong”. Companies have tremendous incentive to figure out what that is. They do huge amounts of market research and customer feedback.
woadwarrior01 3y ago
These days with Apple Silicon, RAM is a part of the SoC. It's not even soldered on, it's a part of the chip. Although TBF, they also offer insane memory bandwidths.
- cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
  Yes it’s almost like we got some benefit from iterating on these aspects of hardware design, as opposed to the typical HN grump characterisation of unbridled evil whenever a laptop isn’t exactly like how they were in 2006.
  - DaSHacka 3y ago
    I don't think it should be too hard to see why a community of hackers take issue with laptops becoming harder to repair and upgrade, considering they're typically the target demographic for such features. Especially when the result is trading almost all forms of autonomy over their devices for marginal increases in RAM speed...
GeekyBear 3y ago
> most of the other vendors just copy Apple Weird conspiracy theories aside, the low power variant of RAM (LPDDR) has to be soldered onto the motherboard, so laptops designed for longer battery life have been using it for years now. The good news is that a newer variant of low power RAM has just been standardized that features low power RAM in memory modules, although they attach with screws and not clips. https://fossbytes.com/camm2-ram-standard/ https://fossbytes.com/camm2-ram-standard/
Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
> And most of the other vendors just copy Apple I don't think it's so much "copying Apple" as much as it's learning that they can do things like solder in the RAM to cut costs and discovering that most people won't care and will still buy it.
octobus2021 3y ago
> Everything is soldered in these days. [...insert sound of old timers laughing at newbies who declared T480/T490 overhyped for no reason because "no one care about upgradability anymore"...] :)

sva_ 3y ago

Plenty of laptops still have SO-DIMM, such as EliteBook for example. People need to vote with their wallet, and not buy stuff that goes against their principles.

popf1 3y ago
There are so many variables though ... most of the time you have to compromise on a few things.
GeekyBear 3y ago
With SO-DIMM you gain expandability at the cost of higher power draw and latency as well as lower throughput. > SO-DIMM memory is inherently slower than soldered memory. Moreover, considering the fact that SO-DIMM has a maximum speed of 6,400MHz means that it won’t be able to handle the DDR6 standard, which is already in the works. https://fossbytes.com/camm2-ram-standard/ https://fossbytes.com/camm2-ram-standard/
kristopolous 3y ago
There needs to be more fidelity than "vote with wallet". Let's say I decided to not purchase your product. Why? The question remains unanswered. Perhaps I didn't see it for sale or Bob in accounting just got one and I didn't want to look like I was copying Bob. Even at scale this doesn't work. Let's say Lenovo switches to making all of their laptops hot pink with bedazzled rhinestone butterflies and sales plummet. You could argue it was the wrong pink or that the butterflies didn't shimmer enough ... any hypothesis you wish. The market provides an extremely low information poor signal that really doesn't suggest any course of action. If we really want something better, there needs to be more fruitful and meaningful communication lines. I've come up with various ideas over the years but haven't really implemented them.
- qeternity 3y ago
  You misunderstand the signal. The signal is “you’re doing something wrong”. Companies have tremendous incentive to figure out what that is. They do huge amounts of market research and customer feedback.

woadwarrior01 3y ago

These days with Apple Silicon, RAM is a part of the SoC. It's not even soldered on, it's a part of the chip. Although TBF, they also offer insane memory bandwidths.

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
Yes it’s almost like we got some benefit from iterating on these aspects of hardware design, as opposed to the typical HN grump characterisation of unbridled evil whenever a laptop isn’t exactly like how they were in 2006.
- DaSHacka 3y ago
  I don't think it should be too hard to see why a community of hackers take issue with laptops becoming harder to repair and upgrade, considering they're typically the target demographic for such features. Especially when the result is trading almost all forms of autonomy over their devices for marginal increases in RAM speed...

GeekyBear 3y ago

> most of the other vendors just copy Apple Weird conspiracy theories aside, the low power variant of RAM (LPDDR) has to be soldered onto the motherboard, so laptops designed for longer battery life have been using it for years now. The good news is that a newer variant of low power RAM has just been standardized that features low power RAM in memory modules, although they attach with screws and not clips. https://fossbytes.com/camm2-ram-standard/ https://fossbytes.com/camm2-ram-standard/

Sohcahtoa82 3y ago

> And most of the other vendors just copy Apple I don't think it's so much "copying Apple" as much as it's learning that they can do things like solder in the RAM to cut costs and discovering that most people won't care and will still buy it.

octobus2021 3y ago

> Everything is soldered in these days. [...insert sound of old timers laughing at newbies who declared T480/T490 overhyped for no reason because "no one care about upgradability anymore"...] :)