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The ultimate goal is to produce general-purpose robots. If we want robots that can do everything a human can, then legs are definitely useful. One simple examp

The ultimate goal is to produce general-purpose robots. If we want robots that can do everything a human can, then legs are definitely useful. One simple example: getting in and out of a car. Another thing to consider is that a legged robot can tilt itself for balance while carrying heavy objects. To carry a similar weight with a wheeled robot you'll need a much wider wheel base. And then of course, if you want to build robots that can be useful inside a house, then they need to be able to cope with stairs. There's also construction... At some point, you don't have elevators... Or just circulating between buildings out on the street where the pavement isn't great.

polygamous_bat 2y ago
In my opinion your argument assumes there would be a single form factor for robots that will be used everywhere. This assumption has generally been false for most technology, look at the different cars or personal computer. In my opinion, we will have as many kinds of robots as there are breeds of dogs, some of which will be bipedal, but most of them will make do with wheels.
- jack_riminton 2y ago
  Exactly. We don't need robots that replace humans 1-for-1. If there's a building site that currently needs humans to scale ladders etc then a combination of lifts, loading bays, cranes, drones and tracked robots can do it, not legged robots that carry everything up ladders etc. Of course that needs very smart systems that can co-ordinate but that's my point, there's an opportunity cost for everything, and I think that's better spent on AI and a multitude of other systems rather than a schoolboy sci-fi fantasy of bipedal robots
- riversflow 2y ago
  > look at the different cars or personal computer. this feels like a flawed example to me. ~100 years on and all cars are starting to look the same.[1] Personal computers, after like 30 years, have mostly converged around something that's essentially a 3x5 touchscreen with cameras on both sides. Sure, there are laptops and PC's, work and semi trucks, but that's 3 form factors? meh. Manufacturing at scale is much more efficient, and form follows function, can't really escape either. [1]https://windingroad.com/articles/features/why-do-all-new-cars-look-the-same/ https://windingroad.com/articles/features/why-do-all-new-car...
jack_riminton 2y ago
Prediction: we'll have self-driving cars that can match our driving before we have legged robots that can match our stability, agility etc. Have you not seen Boston Dynamics tilting wheeled robots that work very well? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iV_hB08Uns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iV_hB08Uns
- snek_case 2y ago
  That tilting wheel robot is huge compared to a person, and it seems to me that the potential for it accidentally injuring a person while moving would be much greater than with a humanoid, if only because of its mass and its need to perform large, rapid motions to maintain its balance.
bluGill 2y ago
Why do I want a general purpose robot? I don't need one robot that does it all, I'm happy with a separate robots for washing my dishes, and vacuuming my floors. Sure both can be improved on, but they don't need to converge. In fact I'm glad those two are separate as I can let both of them run at the same time and get the work done faster, while a general purpose robot can only do one at a time. The goal is to make my life better, robots are only an implementation detail. Maybe some robots need legs (construction robots?), but most don't. If the robot with wheels is cheaper I'll take that in many cases.
- squigz 2y ago
  You want a separate robotic appliance for every thing you want done? That sounds... hectic. I'm also not sure it's important that laundry and dishes get done at the exact same time - if it is, you should probably do 1 of those tasks yourself - especially since a robot would be able to stuff at night, etc, giving it more time to complete tasks Also, GP mentions stairs, and adding wheel support to that. So not only do you want a half dozen robits rolling around your home, you'll also need to remodel your home to support it. Or, of course, we could develop bipedal robots, which seems to have little downside as compared to wheeled robots.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    I just want the tasks done without thinking about them. How it happens doesn't matter to me, just get it done. 1 robot, 1 million - I don't care, just so long as I can afford them and they stay out of my way. While I don't care if everything gets done at once, I care that things are done right and not otherwise inconvenient for me. Maybe the best way to have robots that work slow and then apply a lot of then. The important thing to note here is robots for many of the things I want do not exist. When they come we will see. Maybe is a a specialized robot, maybe it is more general purpose. That is irrelevant.
- Anotheroneagain 2y ago
  Why do I want a general purpose robot? Why do you want a smart phone, instead of the telephone, contact book, camera, clock, alarm clock, radio, mail, credit card and so on?
Solvency 2y ago
whose ultimate goal?
tshaddox 2y ago
To me the killer app would be basic house chores: cleaning, doing dishes, etc. For industrial applications I suspect we will retrofit factories for whatever robot tech we have, instead of needing humanoid robots to use interfaces designed for humans. The same goes even for commercial applications like stocking grocery shelves. Driverless cars are an obvious example already. But people probably don’t want to significantly retrofit their homes with less human-friendly interfaces.
runako 2y ago
Worth noting that none of this points exclusively to bipedalism. It's possible bipedalism is one of the more difficult ways to solve these problems.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

polygamous_bat 2y ago

In my opinion your argument assumes there would be a single form factor for robots that will be used everywhere. This assumption has generally been false for most technology, look at the different cars or personal computer. In my opinion, we will have as many kinds of robots as there are breeds of dogs, some of which will be bipedal, but most of them will make do with wheels.

jack_riminton 2y ago
Exactly. We don't need robots that replace humans 1-for-1. If there's a building site that currently needs humans to scale ladders etc then a combination of lifts, loading bays, cranes, drones and tracked robots can do it, not legged robots that carry everything up ladders etc. Of course that needs very smart systems that can co-ordinate but that's my point, there's an opportunity cost for everything, and I think that's better spent on AI and a multitude of other systems rather than a schoolboy sci-fi fantasy of bipedal robots
riversflow 2y ago
> look at the different cars or personal computer. this feels like a flawed example to me. ~100 years on and all cars are starting to look the same.[1] Personal computers, after like 30 years, have mostly converged around something that's essentially a 3x5 touchscreen with cameras on both sides. Sure, there are laptops and PC's, work and semi trucks, but that's 3 form factors? meh. Manufacturing at scale is much more efficient, and form follows function, can't really escape either. [1]https://windingroad.com/articles/features/why-do-all-new-cars-look-the-same/ https://windingroad.com/articles/features/why-do-all-new-car...

jack_riminton 2y ago

Prediction: we'll have self-driving cars that can match our driving before we have legged robots that can match our stability, agility etc. Have you not seen Boston Dynamics tilting wheeled robots that work very well? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iV_hB08Uns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iV_hB08Uns

snek_case 2y ago
That tilting wheel robot is huge compared to a person, and it seems to me that the potential for it accidentally injuring a person while moving would be much greater than with a humanoid, if only because of its mass and its need to perform large, rapid motions to maintain its balance.

bluGill 2y ago

Why do I want a general purpose robot? I don't need one robot that does it all, I'm happy with a separate robots for washing my dishes, and vacuuming my floors. Sure both can be improved on, but they don't need to converge. In fact I'm glad those two are separate as I can let both of them run at the same time and get the work done faster, while a general purpose robot can only do one at a time. The goal is to make my life better, robots are only an implementation detail. Maybe some robots need legs (construction robots?), but most don't. If the robot with wheels is cheaper I'll take that in many cases.

squigz 2y ago
You want a separate robotic appliance for every thing you want done? That sounds... hectic. I'm also not sure it's important that laundry and dishes get done at the exact same time - if it is, you should probably do 1 of those tasks yourself - especially since a robot would be able to stuff at night, etc, giving it more time to complete tasks Also, GP mentions stairs, and adding wheel support to that. So not only do you want a half dozen robits rolling around your home, you'll also need to remodel your home to support it. Or, of course, we could develop bipedal robots, which seems to have little downside as compared to wheeled robots.
- bluGill 2y ago
  I just want the tasks done without thinking about them. How it happens doesn't matter to me, just get it done. 1 robot, 1 million - I don't care, just so long as I can afford them and they stay out of my way. While I don't care if everything gets done at once, I care that things are done right and not otherwise inconvenient for me. Maybe the best way to have robots that work slow and then apply a lot of then. The important thing to note here is robots for many of the things I want do not exist. When they come we will see. Maybe is a a specialized robot, maybe it is more general purpose. That is irrelevant.
Anotheroneagain 2y ago
Why do I want a general purpose robot? Why do you want a smart phone, instead of the telephone, contact book, camera, clock, alarm clock, radio, mail, credit card and so on?

Solvency 2y ago

whose ultimate goal?

tshaddox 2y ago

To me the killer app would be basic house chores: cleaning, doing dishes, etc. For industrial applications I suspect we will retrofit factories for whatever robot tech we have, instead of needing humanoid robots to use interfaces designed for humans. The same goes even for commercial applications like stocking grocery shelves. Driverless cars are an obvious example already. But people probably don’t want to significantly retrofit their homes with less human-friendly interfaces.

runako 2y ago

Worth noting that none of this points exclusively to bipedalism. It's possible bipedalism is one of the more difficult ways to solve these problems.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]