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A hill I'm willing to die on: bipedal robots are an evolutionary path that machines don't need to go down, we have lovely bearings and wheels that work perfectl

A hill I'm willing to die on: bipedal robots are an evolutionary path that machines don't need to go down, we have lovely bearings and wheels that work perfectly with electric motors. Yes obviously there are limitations i.e. stairs and uneven terrain but there are wheeled/tracked solutions for those too Most of these robots will be used in factories that have very nice flat concrete floors

dcchambers 2y ago
If we ever see a world where robots need to be useful outside of a factory with perfectly flat concrete floors, then yes - there needs to be continued evolution in traversal over uneven ground and around unanticipated objects. Bipedal locomotion is useful for this (although not the only solution). Right now the hardest jobs to replace will be those of plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc where they need to operate with fine motor skills in unique and challenging locations - no two ever being the same.
- chasd00 2y ago
  i think search and rescue is a great application of humanoid robotics, you need something very versatile and a human body is not a bad model for a universal terrain form factor.
snek_case 2y ago
The ultimate goal is to produce general-purpose robots. If we want robots that can do everything a human can, then legs are definitely useful. One simple example: getting in and out of a car. Another thing to consider is that a legged robot can tilt itself for balance while carrying heavy objects. To carry a similar weight with a wheeled robot you'll need a much wider wheel base. And then of course, if you want to build robots that can be useful inside a house, then they need to be able to cope with stairs. There's also construction... At some point, you don't have elevators... Or just circulating between buildings out on the street where the pavement isn't great.
- polygamous_bat 2y ago
  In my opinion your argument assumes there would be a single form factor for robots that will be used everywhere. This assumption has generally been false for most technology, look at the different cars or personal computer. In my opinion, we will have as many kinds of robots as there are breeds of dogs, some of which will be bipedal, but most of them will make do with wheels.
  - jack_riminton 2y ago
    Exactly. We don't need robots that replace humans 1-for-1. If there's a building site that currently needs humans to scale ladders etc then a combination of lifts, loading bays, cranes, drones and tracked robots can do it, not legged robots that carry everything up ladders etc. Of course that needs very smart systems that can co-ordinate but that's my point, there's an opportunity cost for everything, and I think that's better spent on AI and a multitude of other systems rather than a schoolboy sci-fi fantasy of bipedal robots
  - riversflow 2y ago
    > look at the different cars or personal computer. this feels like a flawed example to me. ~100 years on and all cars are starting to look the same.[1] Personal computers, after like 30 years, have mostly converged around something that's essentially a 3x5 touchscreen with cameras on both sides. Sure, there are laptops and PC's, work and semi trucks, but that's 3 form factors? meh. Manufacturing at scale is much more efficient, and form follows function, can't really escape either. [1]https://windingroad.com/articles/features/why-do-all-new-cars-look-the-same/ https://windingroad.com/articles/features/why-do-all-new-car...
- jack_riminton 2y ago
  Prediction: we'll have self-driving cars that can match our driving before we have legged robots that can match our stability, agility etc. Have you not seen Boston Dynamics tilting wheeled robots that work very well? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iV_hB08Uns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iV_hB08Uns
HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
Agreed. It seems to go hand-in-hand with people wanting to demonstrate humanoid robots doing domestic chores like shirt folding. I'd go out on a limb and say that we will NEVER have humanoid robots at home folding laundry, walking upstairs to put it away, or putting away the dishes in the kitchen. This is a 1960's sci-fi vision of the future, similar to that of flying cars. Any robot capable of fully navigating the human world will always be too expensive and unreliable as a home helper. In a factory a stable wheeled robot is way more practical than a bipedal one. It doesn't need a humanoid head either - but I guess that makes for nice PR photos.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  The problem with that “1960s vision” is thinking to literally about having robots do exactly what humans do now. Likely there is a creative way to solve the need for humans to do those tasks via automation, but it’s not likely to look like a humanoid robot folding laundry.
  - HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
    Agreed. On the other hand, it'd be highly amusing if the future did involve humanoid robots out mowing the grass with a push mower, or getting into their car to drive to the grocery store. I'm reminded of this Adam Savage video of BD's Spot pulling a rickshaw (23:00). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyaocKS3sfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyaocKS3sfg Maybe in the future the passenger will be a humanoid robot being taken to its laundry folding job?
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      Humanoid robots making buggy whips to control ornery LLM-based robotic horses. With private/pair key encryption in the whips themselves- they can send a digitally signed wireless "threat" before actual contact is needed.
- cdchn 2y ago
  I don't think its too outlandish to see these getting to a price point where they're cheaper than a human. The goal might not be an appliance Rosie the Robot in every household but having a robot that can help the infirm, elderly or disabled.
atonse 2y ago
I strongly disagree. One of my pet peeves is the idea of asking the world to accommodate a situation rather than build solutions that adapt to the world. Big example: the best we have for mobility nowadays is a wheelchair of some sort. That requires building special ramps and elevators everywhere. If we had a four legged chair that could climb stairs, etc, like what BD is doing, it could transport people ANYWHERE. you could literally go for a stroll in the woods with it. People that are injured for 6 weeks in their home could go up and down steps, etc. The elderly could go for walks in a park. So I for one fully support more research into smarter mobility that doesn’t require the world to accommodate it, but instead adjusts to its surroundings.
- polygamous_bat 2y ago
  > One of my pet peeves is the idea of asking the world to accommodate a situation rather than build solutions that adapt to the world. While I understand and respect the sentiment, in my opinion human history has been a trend in molding our environment to our advantage. I can drive to a remote hill in Bangladesh from the capital because there are roads that we humans built and maintain. If we kept molding to the environment, such an accomplishment would never be possible. So yeah, maybe mold to the environment a little bit, but also mold the environment a bit, is the ideal solution.
  - dmd 2y ago
    > I can drive to a remote hill in Bangladesh from the capital You say this like it's a good thing.
    - polygamous_bat 2y ago
      I think this is an absolutely horrible thing for the environment. My point was to make a testament to the human will, and also to counter arguments that try to wield the cost of accessibility against people with disabilities. We could make a global network of ships, planes, and cars, so why is making a tiny ramp such a big deal afterwards?
- 2y ago
ta8645 2y ago
I'm pretty sure human's role, in the grand scheme of things, is to generate the next step in evolution. We should do the best job we can for the universe.
- ImHereToVote 2y ago
  Why? Does the Universe care? Why not concentrate on those that have the capacity to care?
  - pixl97 2y ago
    I mean you are an emergent phenomenon of the universe and you care, so there is a case to be made the universe cares.
    - ImHereToVote 2y ago
      Yeah, let's concentrate on those facets that do care right now, and their children.
  - ta8645 2y ago
    It was mostly tongue-in-cheek, just to offer a different perspective. But since you ask, how should we employ our capacity to care? On fleeting comfort, or grand visions? Personally, I vote for creating a superior life form, that can carry on the long history of evolution into amazing new realms and abilities. We could be the "bacterial" precursor of an amazing new stage of evolution.
dale_glass 2y ago
I think we very much do. Robots are currently very expensive, so where do you want to send a robot that you can't use a worker? Probably somewhere at least potentially dangerous. You want to use the robot to inspect a tunnel in danger of collapse, or a factory that may be leaking a poisonous chemical out of a pipe. And in such cases you very much want something that can navigate obstacles about as well as a human. You can't count on the area being devoid of rubble, and rebuilding a factory to make it wheeled robot friendly could be an enormously expensive and impractical proposition. Now humanoids? We already designed everything for us. A good enough humanoid robot can go anywhere a person can, and manipulate anything a human was intended to touch.
- jack_riminton 2y ago
  drones, my friend
  - dale_glass 2y ago
    Drones are cool, but would have a hard time getting through a closed door, or turning a valve.
    - jack_riminton 2y ago
      A combination of a tracked vehicles and drones then. There's something quite short-sighted and uncreative about assuming bipedal 1-for-1 replacements are the only solution
      - pixl97 2y ago
        Oh no, my old enemies, the stairs!
    - cdchn 2y ago
      Also, loud.
  - nkingsy 2y ago
    Even a tiny payload is very loud and high energy use
melling 2y ago
Sounds like a meaningless debate where we can’t determine if you’re right or you you’re wrong. “Don’t need” is also a bit vague. I’m gonna pass.
smusamashah 2y ago
Once they get walking wit legs perfected, they can install wheels on those or do whatever wheel thing they want. That will probably be an easier addon.
- kmacleod 2y ago
  This. I've seen kids with wheelies these days. They can go from climbing to zipping around the place with the simplest of natural transition.
paxys 2y ago
What about when a robot is carrying an uneven load and has to rebalance? What if it is knocked over and needs to get back up? What about Steep inclines? Stairs? What if it needs to climb on to a different platform? A conveyer belt? A vehicle? A beam? Even in a factory or warehouse setting wheels are useless for anything but the most ideal cases. And there are already countless robots successfully operating in that space. A general purpose robot is the holy grail, and legs are a requirement for that.
nerdjon 2y ago
I think it really depends on where the robots will be used. yes short term they will be in factories, shipping centers, etc. Places that can be tailored to the robot. But the long term prospects of robots would be in your home, maybe going to the store for you, whatever. We see the limitations of wheeled robots with robot vacuums. They do a decent job but are severely limited trying to do its job in a place that was designed for a human. (On the flip side it can also get some places easier than a human would, so it's a bit of a trade off). By focusing on mimicking humans, we end up being in the best situation for both of these. Factories can try them out with minimal changes to how they operate. Plus, it seems like the biggest hurdle isn't really walking. It seems like we have gotten that one down fairly well (not perfect obviously) and the bigger issues seem to be hands, object recognition, and just "general" AI. Can it actually do anything with the hardware it has on its own.
alfor 2y ago
I too think it's a distraction too but it's won't be the limiting factor. Planes don't flap their wings, cars don't have legs yet are faster and more powerfull than animals. The important part lagging is the brain. Understanding the world, reacting to it learning. Even an ant can navigate the world pick-up objects and do tasks.
andsoitis 2y ago
I think you're unnecessarily short-circuiting your imagination. For one, there are many applications in dangerous environments that could benefit from the dexterity and ability of bipeds - rescue missions, mining, space walks, etc.
Zigurd 2y ago
Boston Dynamics makes all kinds of robots. None of them are consumer products, so I don't think the very good arguments, like Angela Collier's, against having one in the home will be an impediment to developing very capable humanoid robots. Seeing how this one moves, it is human-ish, being bipedal, but it isn't mimicking human movement range.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Philip-J-Fry 2y ago
Well yes. There's always a robot that can be specifically made to handle a specific task in the most efficient way possible. But the fact is, the world has mostly been built by humans for humans. Pretty much any task you can think of can be accomplished by a human with their arms, legs and some tools. A generalised robot would look like a human.
giva 2y ago
> Most of these robots will be used in factories that have very nice flat concrete floors Are you sure? We had robots in factories for more than 50 years, and they don't usually move.
bfung 2y ago
If we’re using NN’s to get fine motor skills right, like final steps in an assembly line, the simplest and most abundant source of training data are humans. :shrug:
- HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
  Sure, but you don't even need a lower body for that, and if you do want to let the robot move around than a stable wheeled base that doesn't negatively impact the fine-motor skills needed when it is in position seems preferable.
bilsbie 2y ago
You raise good points and I used to agree. What changed my mind is thinking of humanoid robots as the “last mile” of robotics. All the thousands of use cases where there are no easy patterns and we need something that can fit into any human task without planning or modification.
visarga 2y ago
Androids are human-compatible. An android could go any place a human could go and operate any machinery a human could operate - that widens the space of possible applications. A wheeled robot is capable of many tasks, but it can't dance with you, play piano, wear your wardrobe or sit in a plane seat.
__mharrison__ 2y ago
Much more training data (videos) available for bipedal organisms performing useful tasks...

dcchambers 2y ago

If we ever see a world where robots need to be useful outside of a factory with perfectly flat concrete floors, then yes - there needs to be continued evolution in traversal over uneven ground and around unanticipated objects. Bipedal locomotion is useful for this (although not the only solution). Right now the hardest jobs to replace will be those of plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc where they need to operate with fine motor skills in unique and challenging locations - no two ever being the same.

chasd00 2y ago
i think search and rescue is a great application of humanoid robotics, you need something very versatile and a human body is not a bad model for a universal terrain form factor.

snek_case 2y ago

The ultimate goal is to produce general-purpose robots. If we want robots that can do everything a human can, then legs are definitely useful. One simple example: getting in and out of a car. Another thing to consider is that a legged robot can tilt itself for balance while carrying heavy objects. To carry a similar weight with a wheeled robot you'll need a much wider wheel base. And then of course, if you want to build robots that can be useful inside a house, then they need to be able to cope with stairs. There's also construction... At some point, you don't have elevators... Or just circulating between buildings out on the street where the pavement isn't great.

polygamous_bat 2y ago
In my opinion your argument assumes there would be a single form factor for robots that will be used everywhere. This assumption has generally been false for most technology, look at the different cars or personal computer. In my opinion, we will have as many kinds of robots as there are breeds of dogs, some of which will be bipedal, but most of them will make do with wheels.
- jack_riminton 2y ago
  Exactly. We don't need robots that replace humans 1-for-1. If there's a building site that currently needs humans to scale ladders etc then a combination of lifts, loading bays, cranes, drones and tracked robots can do it, not legged robots that carry everything up ladders etc. Of course that needs very smart systems that can co-ordinate but that's my point, there's an opportunity cost for everything, and I think that's better spent on AI and a multitude of other systems rather than a schoolboy sci-fi fantasy of bipedal robots
- riversflow 2y ago
  > look at the different cars or personal computer. this feels like a flawed example to me. ~100 years on and all cars are starting to look the same.[1] Personal computers, after like 30 years, have mostly converged around something that's essentially a 3x5 touchscreen with cameras on both sides. Sure, there are laptops and PC's, work and semi trucks, but that's 3 form factors? meh. Manufacturing at scale is much more efficient, and form follows function, can't really escape either. [1]https://windingroad.com/articles/features/why-do-all-new-cars-look-the-same/ https://windingroad.com/articles/features/why-do-all-new-car...
jack_riminton 2y ago
Prediction: we'll have self-driving cars that can match our driving before we have legged robots that can match our stability, agility etc. Have you not seen Boston Dynamics tilting wheeled robots that work very well? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iV_hB08Uns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iV_hB08Uns

HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago

Agreed. It seems to go hand-in-hand with people wanting to demonstrate humanoid robots doing domestic chores like shirt folding. I'd go out on a limb and say that we will NEVER have humanoid robots at home folding laundry, walking upstairs to put it away, or putting away the dishes in the kitchen. This is a 1960's sci-fi vision of the future, similar to that of flying cars. Any robot capable of fully navigating the human world will always be too expensive and unreliable as a home helper. In a factory a stable wheeled robot is way more practical than a bipedal one. It doesn't need a humanoid head either - but I guess that makes for nice PR photos.

_yb2s 2y ago
The problem with that “1960s vision” is thinking to literally about having robots do exactly what humans do now. Likely there is a creative way to solve the need for humans to do those tasks via automation, but it’s not likely to look like a humanoid robot folding laundry.
- HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
  Agreed. On the other hand, it'd be highly amusing if the future did involve humanoid robots out mowing the grass with a push mower, or getting into their car to drive to the grocery store. I'm reminded of this Adam Savage video of BD's Spot pulling a rickshaw (23:00). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyaocKS3sfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyaocKS3sfg Maybe in the future the passenger will be a humanoid robot being taken to its laundry folding job?
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    Humanoid robots making buggy whips to control ornery LLM-based robotic horses. With private/pair key encryption in the whips themselves- they can send a digitally signed wireless "threat" before actual contact is needed.
cdchn 2y ago
I don't think its too outlandish to see these getting to a price point where they're cheaper than a human. The goal might not be an appliance Rosie the Robot in every household but having a robot that can help the infirm, elderly or disabled.

atonse 2y ago

I strongly disagree. One of my pet peeves is the idea of asking the world to accommodate a situation rather than build solutions that adapt to the world. Big example: the best we have for mobility nowadays is a wheelchair of some sort. That requires building special ramps and elevators everywhere. If we had a four legged chair that could climb stairs, etc, like what BD is doing, it could transport people ANYWHERE. you could literally go for a stroll in the woods with it. People that are injured for 6 weeks in their home could go up and down steps, etc. The elderly could go for walks in a park. So I for one fully support more research into smarter mobility that doesn’t require the world to accommodate it, but instead adjusts to its surroundings.

polygamous_bat 2y ago
> One of my pet peeves is the idea of asking the world to accommodate a situation rather than build solutions that adapt to the world. While I understand and respect the sentiment, in my opinion human history has been a trend in molding our environment to our advantage. I can drive to a remote hill in Bangladesh from the capital because there are roads that we humans built and maintain. If we kept molding to the environment, such an accomplishment would never be possible. So yeah, maybe mold to the environment a little bit, but also mold the environment a bit, is the ideal solution.
- dmd 2y ago
  > I can drive to a remote hill in Bangladesh from the capital You say this like it's a good thing.
  - polygamous_bat 2y ago
    I think this is an absolutely horrible thing for the environment. My point was to make a testament to the human will, and also to counter arguments that try to wield the cost of accessibility against people with disabilities. We could make a global network of ships, planes, and cars, so why is making a tiny ramp such a big deal afterwards?
2y ago

ta8645 2y ago

I'm pretty sure human's role, in the grand scheme of things, is to generate the next step in evolution. We should do the best job we can for the universe.

ImHereToVote 2y ago
Why? Does the Universe care? Why not concentrate on those that have the capacity to care?
- pixl97 2y ago
  I mean you are an emergent phenomenon of the universe and you care, so there is a case to be made the universe cares.
  - ImHereToVote 2y ago
    Yeah, let's concentrate on those facets that do care right now, and their children.
- ta8645 2y ago
  It was mostly tongue-in-cheek, just to offer a different perspective. But since you ask, how should we employ our capacity to care? On fleeting comfort, or grand visions? Personally, I vote for creating a superior life form, that can carry on the long history of evolution into amazing new realms and abilities. We could be the "bacterial" precursor of an amazing new stage of evolution.

dale_glass 2y ago

I think we very much do. Robots are currently very expensive, so where do you want to send a robot that you can't use a worker? Probably somewhere at least potentially dangerous. You want to use the robot to inspect a tunnel in danger of collapse, or a factory that may be leaking a poisonous chemical out of a pipe. And in such cases you very much want something that can navigate obstacles about as well as a human. You can't count on the area being devoid of rubble, and rebuilding a factory to make it wheeled robot friendly could be an enormously expensive and impractical proposition. Now humanoids? We already designed everything for us. A good enough humanoid robot can go anywhere a person can, and manipulate anything a human was intended to touch.

jack_riminton 2y ago
drones, my friend
- dale_glass 2y ago
  Drones are cool, but would have a hard time getting through a closed door, or turning a valve.
  - jack_riminton 2y ago
    A combination of a tracked vehicles and drones then. There's something quite short-sighted and uncreative about assuming bipedal 1-for-1 replacements are the only solution
    - pixl97 2y ago
      Oh no, my old enemies, the stairs!
  - cdchn 2y ago
    Also, loud.
- nkingsy 2y ago
  Even a tiny payload is very loud and high energy use

melling 2y ago

Sounds like a meaningless debate where we can’t determine if you’re right or you you’re wrong. “Don’t need” is also a bit vague. I’m gonna pass.

smusamashah 2y ago

Once they get walking wit legs perfected, they can install wheels on those or do whatever wheel thing they want. That will probably be an easier addon.

kmacleod 2y ago
This. I've seen kids with wheelies these days. They can go from climbing to zipping around the place with the simplest of natural transition.

paxys 2y ago

What about when a robot is carrying an uneven load and has to rebalance? What if it is knocked over and needs to get back up? What about Steep inclines? Stairs? What if it needs to climb on to a different platform? A conveyer belt? A vehicle? A beam? Even in a factory or warehouse setting wheels are useless for anything but the most ideal cases. And there are already countless robots successfully operating in that space. A general purpose robot is the holy grail, and legs are a requirement for that.

nerdjon 2y ago

I think it really depends on where the robots will be used. yes short term they will be in factories, shipping centers, etc. Places that can be tailored to the robot. But the long term prospects of robots would be in your home, maybe going to the store for you, whatever. We see the limitations of wheeled robots with robot vacuums. They do a decent job but are severely limited trying to do its job in a place that was designed for a human. (On the flip side it can also get some places easier than a human would, so it's a bit of a trade off). By focusing on mimicking humans, we end up being in the best situation for both of these. Factories can try them out with minimal changes to how they operate. Plus, it seems like the biggest hurdle isn't really walking. It seems like we have gotten that one down fairly well (not perfect obviously) and the bigger issues seem to be hands, object recognition, and just "general" AI. Can it actually do anything with the hardware it has on its own.

alfor 2y ago

I too think it's a distraction too but it's won't be the limiting factor. Planes don't flap their wings, cars don't have legs yet are faster and more powerfull than animals. The important part lagging is the brain. Understanding the world, reacting to it learning. Even an ant can navigate the world pick-up objects and do tasks.

andsoitis 2y ago

I think you're unnecessarily short-circuiting your imagination. For one, there are many applications in dangerous environments that could benefit from the dexterity and ability of bipeds - rescue missions, mining, space walks, etc.

Zigurd 2y ago

Boston Dynamics makes all kinds of robots. None of them are consumer products, so I don't think the very good arguments, like Angela Collier's, against having one in the home will be an impediment to developing very capable humanoid robots. Seeing how this one moves, it is human-ish, being bipedal, but it isn't mimicking human movement range.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Philip-J-Fry 2y ago

Well yes. There's always a robot that can be specifically made to handle a specific task in the most efficient way possible. But the fact is, the world has mostly been built by humans for humans. Pretty much any task you can think of can be accomplished by a human with their arms, legs and some tools. A generalised robot would look like a human.

giva 2y ago

> Most of these robots will be used in factories that have very nice flat concrete floors Are you sure? We had robots in factories for more than 50 years, and they don't usually move.

bfung 2y ago

If we’re using NN’s to get fine motor skills right, like final steps in an assembly line, the simplest and most abundant source of training data are humans. :shrug:

HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
Sure, but you don't even need a lower body for that, and if you do want to let the robot move around than a stable wheeled base that doesn't negatively impact the fine-motor skills needed when it is in position seems preferable.

bilsbie 2y ago

You raise good points and I used to agree. What changed my mind is thinking of humanoid robots as the “last mile” of robotics. All the thousands of use cases where there are no easy patterns and we need something that can fit into any human task without planning or modification.

visarga 2y ago

Androids are human-compatible. An android could go any place a human could go and operate any machinery a human could operate - that widens the space of possible applications. A wheeled robot is capable of many tasks, but it can't dance with you, play piano, wear your wardrobe or sit in a plane seat.

__mharrison__ 2y ago

Much more training data (videos) available for bipedal organisms performing useful tasks...