9 ms·

A ridiculous fairy tale. Dictatorships need hardly interfere with the "stability" of a society which launches a bloody and monumentally expensive temper tantrum

by anlsh 2y ago

A ridiculous fairy tale. Dictatorships need hardly interfere with the "stability" of a society which launches a bloody and monumentally expensive temper tantrum in response to 9/11 but allows thousands more to die each year for want of basic medicines

hmmmcurious1 2y ago
[flagged]
- sparrowInHand 2y ago
  [flagged]
another2another 2y ago
>A <$insert hyper emotional disparagement>. Dictatorships need hardly interfere with the "stability" of a society which <$insert random example some democratic failure>. And yet they do interfere. We've seen plenty of evidence, from Russia, Iran, China and (I still can't believe how they got competent at this, but there you go) North Korea. And in some cases they've been successful at destabilizing formerly fairly sane and stable democratic countries. The social divisions that the UK And US currently find themselves in could be attributed in part to this steady drip of caustic interference. However, as a "short term pessimist, but long term optimist" (Hitchens), I'm optimistic that we will start to introspect a bit more as societies and begin to be less easily manipulated. It will take a while, but I believe even now the tide is turning.
- MSFT_Edging 2y ago
  > The social divisions that the UK And US currently find themselves in could be attributed in part to this steady drip of caustic interference. Please look away from the curtain hiding rising wealth inequality, cost of living, and the financialization of daily needs. There are no material explanation for the rising contradictions. It is simply our boogymen misleading our population. It is good we as a society make bets on housing! Who needs to sleep under a roof when you can own shares!
  - another2another 2y ago
    I agree with you that things are currently quite bad, and need to get better. From my UK centric viewpoint, over the last decade Brexit, climate change and the pandemic have proven fertile ground for diverting peoples' attention away from societal issues that have not been addressed, or have even exacerbated by wilful neglect of basic services by Government. But I have the feeling that that well of constant culture wars has run dry, and people are becoming more wary of being drawn into endless fruitless debates about these things. And after looking up form their smartphones they've finally seen all of the signs for Food Banks, noticed that the weather has gone insane and that the price of biscuits is inhumane and asked themselves 'how did we get here?' 'how do we get back to a better place?' and will hopefully agitate again for a better society. Swings and roundabouts.
    - Loughla 2y ago
      >But I have the feeling that that well of constant culture wars has run dry, Honestly, I don't believe that statement. I think many people equate the culture war issues to the issues later in that second paragraph with the economy and climate (if they even see an issue there). If our leaders are failing at [insert culture war issue here], then that explains why they're failing at [insert economic issue here].
    - theossuary 2y ago
      I'm confused by your comment. First you call climate change a distraction; then you list it as something people are finally becoming aware of? The endless debates were to try and stop it. The population not being able to is just a reflection of the majority. It's odd how people are trying to divide politics into "culture war" and real problems; it wasn't that long ago climate change was considered a culture war. Labeling something a "culture war" is just the first kneejerk reaction from the right when they appose something.
      - another2another 2y ago
        Creating a culture war is often the first reaction of the right to things they don't like in order to blunt their effect. "loonie lentil eating lefties", "greenies", "mad Greta" (I'm making these up, but I'm sure I'm sure there's plenty of similar examples). People used to be comforted by these ad-hominems, and it allowed them to continue buying aspirational 4x4 off-road vehicles and 3 flights abroad a year without touching their conscious. They could laugh, share memes, ignore news stories about forest fires in Canada in December or massive loss of ice shelves in Antarctica and carry on as usual. But as the pot starts to boil harder I get the feeling people are looking away from these distractions and beginning to look more critically at the information they're getting, and beginning to wonder if it's not such a funny joke after all.
- blooalien 2y ago
  > "And yet they do interfere. We've seen plenty of evidence, from Russia, Iran, China and (I still can't believe how they got competent at this, but there you go) North Korea." (Emphasis; Mine - To single out the bit I'm replying to specifically.) I still can't believe how readily so very many people continue to fall for it time and again, despite the lessons of history.
  - randmeerkat 2y ago
    > I still can't believe how readily so very many people continue to fall for it time and again, despite the lessons of history. “The bigger the trick, the older the trick, the easier it is to pull.” “You believe it can’t be that old, and it can’t be that big for so many people to have fallen for it.”
  - another2another 2y ago
    Your answer seems a bit vague to me, so I can't follow what your objection is. But just to be clear, my surprise at their abilities stems from the fact that their country is so insular, tightly controlled and technologically backward* (look at a night picture of N. Korea, for instance, 80% dark, with no basic streetlighting), that it surprises me that they can allow a portion of their society to roam and participate in the internet freely without infecting the rest of their country. The Doublethink needed to pull that off must be staggering (thank you Orwell for giving us a vocabulary to express the concepts and experience of living under totalitarianism). *I know they have ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons, also I'm pretty sure their internal surveillance tech is also top notch.
    - Ray20 2y ago
      > the fact that their country is so insular, tightly controlled and technologically backward A totalitarian country can invest billions of dollars from the federal budget into propaganda in another countries. You don't need technological supremacy to pour money into something. Tight cotroll and insulation makes the task easier, not harder. > that it surprises me that they can allow a portion of their society to roam and participate in the internet freely without infecting the rest of their country. Isolation and elimination of infected individuals helps prevent the spread of the disease through hte population
- RobotToaster 2y ago
  Whatever marginal effect foreign interference has, it's almost certainly dwarfed by interference, or "lobbying", from domestic capitalists.
  - Lendal 2y ago
    I haven't read much about the domestic capitalists and lobbyists attacking our critical infrastructure with cyber-attacks. Please tell us more about this.
    - solarpunk 2y ago
      They're the ones that cost-cut the operations of aforementioned critical infrastructure to the point of it being so vulnerable... Just look at catastrophes caused by PG&E in 2018, ERCOT in 2021, or First Energy in 2003. Not a single one was caused by an attack on critical infrastructure, they're just cutting corners!
    - RobotToaster 2y ago
      They don't have to, they just buy politicians that remove safety laws and break strikes against unsafe working conditions. The Ohio rail disaster was just one example of this happening.
  - another2another 2y ago
    This is certainly an issue, but apart from environmental legislation (e.g. please may I pump raw shit and tonnes of pesticide into public waterways) their main interest is at least in preserving public stability, general wealth and happiness. Dictatorships though have a more macroscopically sinister agenda against successful democratic rivals.
  - gengwyn 2y ago
    Foreign interference is almost always bad and against the interests of national security. Lobbying on domestic policy actually has some important uses.
    - 2y ago
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  Can you give a tangible example where disinformation from China impacted any domestic topic in the US? Sure, there is propaganda and attempts to influence certain topics, but I wouldn't want to give up privacy because I don't like some content on TikTok. I think the divisions are of domestic origin and this argument is more or less FUD. And no, you will hardly ever get rid of surveillance powers once established without serious political shifts. Propaganda messages are quite easy and public. And yet I don't think you can name a single instance where such a message would have influenced the beliefs of a significant portion of the domestic population. If so, which message, what topic and who was targeted? I think an example of propaganda is that you need to give up your freedoms for security because of "disinformation". A wrong statement on the internet became a threat to democracy.
  - another2another 2y ago
    >I think the divisions are of domestic origin and this argument is more or less FUD. I agree, many divisions are definitely of domestic origin. However we definitely know that foreign interference has been at play to identify and amplify those divisions. >If so, which message, what topic and who was targeted? 5G - weird one I know, but agitators gonna agitate. Climate - Russia was a massive oil exporter, de-carbonizing efforts threatened that. Atomic power in Germany - Russia definitely didn't want Germany achieving independence from their gas imports. BRICS - China would love to de-dollarize the world. >And no, you will hardly ever get rid of surveillance powers once established without serious political shifts. And this is the advantage of democracies, big shifts can happen. With Dictatorships however it usually takes violence. A lot of violence.
    - snapcaster 2y ago
      5g? why would china be anti-5g? how is the whole BRICS thing propaganda or foreign interference (is NATO propaganda or just an association, don't even get your point since BRICS isn't even that organized)? I was on the fence but this response put me super firmly into the "this argument is FUD" camp
- LtWorf 2y ago
  Do you think the alphabet soup doesn't do any propaganda?
someguydave 2y ago
Who dies for want of basic medicines?
- djbusby 2y ago
  Americans w/diabetes is one group.
  - 0xBDB 2y ago
    We (I am one, though fortunate to have excellent insurance) really are not one such group. https://www.healthline.com/health/diabetes/16-tips-to-help-you-afford-your-diabetes-medication-and-supplies#where-to-start https://www.healthline.com/health/diabetes/16-tips-to-help-y... I am not a fan of the American healthcare system. Navigating it takes brains and effort that shouldn't be required. But if you have them it is essentially not possible to die here from lack of healthcare, and it's possible but surprisingly difficult to go bankrupt (except from lost wages, which is also a leading cause of bankruptcy in the UK).
    - zrn900 2y ago
      > But if you have them it is essentially not possible to die here from lack of healthcare, and it's possible but surprisingly difficult to go bankrupt That's a false myth. https://www.quora.com/Were-there-any-American-citizens-living-on-US-soil-who-died-because-they-couldnt-afford-healthcare https://www.quora.com/Were-there-any-American-citizens-livin... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/14/health-insurance-medical-bankruptcy-debt https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/14/health-insur...
      - 0xBDB 2y ago
        Yes, so this is where the brains and effort (and time, forgot time) come in. The anecdotes in your links (that I read - can't get through all of them right now) have a common theme, which is that people died because they either needed very expensive and/or experimental treatment that probably would not be affordably provided to them under any plausible healthcare system, or else they got a bill, decided they couldn't pay it, and did without or tried to self-ration their healthcare. The correct course of action in that case is to call the healthcare provider and negotiate A) a 90+% discount and B) a payment plan, both of which are pretty readily available in the American system. You have to know that's possible, and you shouldn't have to, but it is possible. Then you reach out to the charities, government programs, and/or nonprofits from my original link to cover what you still can't afford. Same deal if you get screwed by an insurance company as in the Guardian article. This is, again, not something I'm trying to defend. It's not the way a sane healthcare system would run. But it is a system that works, more or less, for those who know how to work within it.
skhunted 2y ago
And yet they do interfere and are actively engaged in sowing dissent, discord, and wacky ideas by utilizing the power of social media. Your comment is at odds with reality. The rise of people being against something as obviously beneficial as the polio vaccine is an indication of just how powerful disinformation campaigns can be.
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  The reactance of those against vaccines had completely different sources. It wasn't China or Russia that are responsible here, far from it. They of course noticed and certainly tried to reinforce that message, because they indeed became aware of the split. But the initial reason was a lack of trust in media and domestic politics and not some external propaganda channel. And expect this to get much worse if you now increase surveillance. That said, NPR just suspended a journalist that did notice some form of propaganda from domestic sources, which might explain why people were distrustful in the first place. In fact, you might be a victim of propaganda. Maybe read up on it.
  - skhunted 2y ago
    The effectiveness of the polio vaccine has been demonstrated for many decades. That now polio is on the rise and the number of morons who are opposed to that vaccine is due to “propaganda”. State sponsored information warfare has taken what was once kooky ideas and spread them in such a way that a significant portion of the population buys into them. It is wise for you too to read up on state sponsored disinformation campaigns. Obviously the U.S. and others are involved in such campaigns. Obviously the U.S. government and institutions like the NYT have collaborated to sell a version of events. For instance the NYT endorsing the invasion of Iraq.
    - raxxorraxor 2y ago
      The polio vaccine in particular had some hiccups where people got infected with polio due to insufficiently neutered pathogens in the past. Today the vaccine is created differently and this isn't a problem anymore. But still this is a reason why the vaccine might have a bad reputation in some places in the world. That is has returned to developed countries has probably other issues instead of propaganda. But there aren't any propaganda campaigns in western nations that disincentive vaccination that would create the need for government to spy on your devices. These alleged propaganda campaigns would be easy to find, no? Since they target a broad audience?
JoshTko 2y ago
It's just a ROI calculation. A Russian fighter jet costs $25 mil, so a rational course of action would to weigh the benefit of buying another jet vs. buying a dozen congressmen, or flooding social media with misinformation to cancel a multi billion dollar defense bill for Ukraine.
- hypertele-Xii 2y ago
  When God was abandoned, money became the top object of worship. Is that experiment going well yet?
  - joquarky 2y ago
    Which god figure are you referring to? For example, Abrahamic religious leaders have made the concept of god toxic. But if you go by their dogma, then their god is responsible for the state of things. Many of the non-abrahamic religions in the USA don't even have a god in the same sense, or they see their (equivalent to) god as the fabric of the cosmos and thereby not able to be abandoned. I agree about the money though. It is the leading religion now.

by anlsh 2y ago

hmmmcurious1 2y ago

[flagged]

sparrowInHand 2y ago
[flagged]

another2another 2y ago

>A <$insert hyper emotional disparagement>. Dictatorships need hardly interfere with the "stability" of a society which <$insert random example some democratic failure>. And yet they do interfere. We've seen plenty of evidence, from Russia, Iran, China and (I still can't believe how they got competent at this, but there you go) North Korea. And in some cases they've been successful at destabilizing formerly fairly sane and stable democratic countries. The social divisions that the UK And US currently find themselves in could be attributed in part to this steady drip of caustic interference. However, as a "short term pessimist, but long term optimist" (Hitchens), I'm optimistic that we will start to introspect a bit more as societies and begin to be less easily manipulated. It will take a while, but I believe even now the tide is turning.

MSFT_Edging 2y ago
> The social divisions that the UK And US currently find themselves in could be attributed in part to this steady drip of caustic interference. Please look away from the curtain hiding rising wealth inequality, cost of living, and the financialization of daily needs. There are no material explanation for the rising contradictions. It is simply our boogymen misleading our population. It is good we as a society make bets on housing! Who needs to sleep under a roof when you can own shares!
- another2another 2y ago
  I agree with you that things are currently quite bad, and need to get better. From my UK centric viewpoint, over the last decade Brexit, climate change and the pandemic have proven fertile ground for diverting peoples' attention away from societal issues that have not been addressed, or have even exacerbated by wilful neglect of basic services by Government. But I have the feeling that that well of constant culture wars has run dry, and people are becoming more wary of being drawn into endless fruitless debates about these things. And after looking up form their smartphones they've finally seen all of the signs for Food Banks, noticed that the weather has gone insane and that the price of biscuits is inhumane and asked themselves 'how did we get here?' 'how do we get back to a better place?' and will hopefully agitate again for a better society. Swings and roundabouts.
  - Loughla 2y ago
    >But I have the feeling that that well of constant culture wars has run dry, Honestly, I don't believe that statement. I think many people equate the culture war issues to the issues later in that second paragraph with the economy and climate (if they even see an issue there). If our leaders are failing at [insert culture war issue here], then that explains why they're failing at [insert economic issue here].
  - theossuary 2y ago
    I'm confused by your comment. First you call climate change a distraction; then you list it as something people are finally becoming aware of? The endless debates were to try and stop it. The population not being able to is just a reflection of the majority. It's odd how people are trying to divide politics into "culture war" and real problems; it wasn't that long ago climate change was considered a culture war. Labeling something a "culture war" is just the first kneejerk reaction from the right when they appose something.
    - another2another 2y ago
      Creating a culture war is often the first reaction of the right to things they don't like in order to blunt their effect. "loonie lentil eating lefties", "greenies", "mad Greta" (I'm making these up, but I'm sure I'm sure there's plenty of similar examples). People used to be comforted by these ad-hominems, and it allowed them to continue buying aspirational 4x4 off-road vehicles and 3 flights abroad a year without touching their conscious. They could laugh, share memes, ignore news stories about forest fires in Canada in December or massive loss of ice shelves in Antarctica and carry on as usual. But as the pot starts to boil harder I get the feeling people are looking away from these distractions and beginning to look more critically at the information they're getting, and beginning to wonder if it's not such a funny joke after all.
blooalien 2y ago
> "And yet they do interfere. We've seen plenty of evidence, from Russia, Iran, China and (I still can't believe how they got competent at this, but there you go) North Korea." (Emphasis; Mine - To single out the bit I'm replying to specifically.) I still can't believe how readily so very many people continue to fall for it time and again, despite the lessons of history.
- randmeerkat 2y ago
  > I still can't believe how readily so very many people continue to fall for it time and again, despite the lessons of history. “The bigger the trick, the older the trick, the easier it is to pull.” “You believe it can’t be that old, and it can’t be that big for so many people to have fallen for it.”
- another2another 2y ago
  Your answer seems a bit vague to me, so I can't follow what your objection is. But just to be clear, my surprise at their abilities stems from the fact that their country is so insular, tightly controlled and technologically backward* (look at a night picture of N. Korea, for instance, 80% dark, with no basic streetlighting), that it surprises me that they can allow a portion of their society to roam and participate in the internet freely without infecting the rest of their country. The Doublethink needed to pull that off must be staggering (thank you Orwell for giving us a vocabulary to express the concepts and experience of living under totalitarianism). *I know they have ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons, also I'm pretty sure their internal surveillance tech is also top notch.
  - Ray20 2y ago
    > the fact that their country is so insular, tightly controlled and technologically backward A totalitarian country can invest billions of dollars from the federal budget into propaganda in another countries. You don't need technological supremacy to pour money into something. Tight cotroll and insulation makes the task easier, not harder. > that it surprises me that they can allow a portion of their society to roam and participate in the internet freely without infecting the rest of their country. Isolation and elimination of infected individuals helps prevent the spread of the disease through hte population
RobotToaster 2y ago
Whatever marginal effect foreign interference has, it's almost certainly dwarfed by interference, or "lobbying", from domestic capitalists.
- Lendal 2y ago
  I haven't read much about the domestic capitalists and lobbyists attacking our critical infrastructure with cyber-attacks. Please tell us more about this.
  - solarpunk 2y ago
    They're the ones that cost-cut the operations of aforementioned critical infrastructure to the point of it being so vulnerable... Just look at catastrophes caused by PG&E in 2018, ERCOT in 2021, or First Energy in 2003. Not a single one was caused by an attack on critical infrastructure, they're just cutting corners!
  - RobotToaster 2y ago
    They don't have to, they just buy politicians that remove safety laws and break strikes against unsafe working conditions. The Ohio rail disaster was just one example of this happening.
- another2another 2y ago
  This is certainly an issue, but apart from environmental legislation (e.g. please may I pump raw shit and tonnes of pesticide into public waterways) their main interest is at least in preserving public stability, general wealth and happiness. Dictatorships though have a more macroscopically sinister agenda against successful democratic rivals.
- gengwyn 2y ago
  Foreign interference is almost always bad and against the interests of national security. Lobbying on domestic policy actually has some important uses.
  - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
raxxorraxor 2y ago
Can you give a tangible example where disinformation from China impacted any domestic topic in the US? Sure, there is propaganda and attempts to influence certain topics, but I wouldn't want to give up privacy because I don't like some content on TikTok. I think the divisions are of domestic origin and this argument is more or less FUD. And no, you will hardly ever get rid of surveillance powers once established without serious political shifts. Propaganda messages are quite easy and public. And yet I don't think you can name a single instance where such a message would have influenced the beliefs of a significant portion of the domestic population. If so, which message, what topic and who was targeted? I think an example of propaganda is that you need to give up your freedoms for security because of "disinformation". A wrong statement on the internet became a threat to democracy.
- another2another 2y ago
  >I think the divisions are of domestic origin and this argument is more or less FUD. I agree, many divisions are definitely of domestic origin. However we definitely know that foreign interference has been at play to identify and amplify those divisions. >If so, which message, what topic and who was targeted? 5G - weird one I know, but agitators gonna agitate. Climate - Russia was a massive oil exporter, de-carbonizing efforts threatened that. Atomic power in Germany - Russia definitely didn't want Germany achieving independence from their gas imports. BRICS - China would love to de-dollarize the world. >And no, you will hardly ever get rid of surveillance powers once established without serious political shifts. And this is the advantage of democracies, big shifts can happen. With Dictatorships however it usually takes violence. A lot of violence.
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    5g? why would china be anti-5g? how is the whole BRICS thing propaganda or foreign interference (is NATO propaganda or just an association, don't even get your point since BRICS isn't even that organized)? I was on the fence but this response put me super firmly into the "this argument is FUD" camp
LtWorf 2y ago
Do you think the alphabet soup doesn't do any propaganda?

someguydave 2y ago

Who dies for want of basic medicines?

djbusby 2y ago
Americans w/diabetes is one group.
- 0xBDB 2y ago
  We (I am one, though fortunate to have excellent insurance) really are not one such group. https://www.healthline.com/health/diabetes/16-tips-to-help-you-afford-your-diabetes-medication-and-supplies#where-to-start https://www.healthline.com/health/diabetes/16-tips-to-help-y... I am not a fan of the American healthcare system. Navigating it takes brains and effort that shouldn't be required. But if you have them it is essentially not possible to die here from lack of healthcare, and it's possible but surprisingly difficult to go bankrupt (except from lost wages, which is also a leading cause of bankruptcy in the UK).
  - zrn900 2y ago
    > But if you have them it is essentially not possible to die here from lack of healthcare, and it's possible but surprisingly difficult to go bankrupt That's a false myth. https://www.quora.com/Were-there-any-American-citizens-living-on-US-soil-who-died-because-they-couldnt-afford-healthcare https://www.quora.com/Were-there-any-American-citizens-livin... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/14/health-insurance-medical-bankruptcy-debt https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/14/health-insur...
    - 0xBDB 2y ago
      Yes, so this is where the brains and effort (and time, forgot time) come in. The anecdotes in your links (that I read - can't get through all of them right now) have a common theme, which is that people died because they either needed very expensive and/or experimental treatment that probably would not be affordably provided to them under any plausible healthcare system, or else they got a bill, decided they couldn't pay it, and did without or tried to self-ration their healthcare. The correct course of action in that case is to call the healthcare provider and negotiate A) a 90+% discount and B) a payment plan, both of which are pretty readily available in the American system. You have to know that's possible, and you shouldn't have to, but it is possible. Then you reach out to the charities, government programs, and/or nonprofits from my original link to cover what you still can't afford. Same deal if you get screwed by an insurance company as in the Guardian article. This is, again, not something I'm trying to defend. It's not the way a sane healthcare system would run. But it is a system that works, more or less, for those who know how to work within it.

skhunted 2y ago

And yet they do interfere and are actively engaged in sowing dissent, discord, and wacky ideas by utilizing the power of social media. Your comment is at odds with reality. The rise of people being against something as obviously beneficial as the polio vaccine is an indication of just how powerful disinformation campaigns can be.

raxxorraxor 2y ago
The reactance of those against vaccines had completely different sources. It wasn't China or Russia that are responsible here, far from it. They of course noticed and certainly tried to reinforce that message, because they indeed became aware of the split. But the initial reason was a lack of trust in media and domestic politics and not some external propaganda channel. And expect this to get much worse if you now increase surveillance. That said, NPR just suspended a journalist that did notice some form of propaganda from domestic sources, which might explain why people were distrustful in the first place. In fact, you might be a victim of propaganda. Maybe read up on it.
- skhunted 2y ago
  The effectiveness of the polio vaccine has been demonstrated for many decades. That now polio is on the rise and the number of morons who are opposed to that vaccine is due to “propaganda”. State sponsored information warfare has taken what was once kooky ideas and spread them in such a way that a significant portion of the population buys into them. It is wise for you too to read up on state sponsored disinformation campaigns. Obviously the U.S. and others are involved in such campaigns. Obviously the U.S. government and institutions like the NYT have collaborated to sell a version of events. For instance the NYT endorsing the invasion of Iraq.
  - raxxorraxor 2y ago
    The polio vaccine in particular had some hiccups where people got infected with polio due to insufficiently neutered pathogens in the past. Today the vaccine is created differently and this isn't a problem anymore. But still this is a reason why the vaccine might have a bad reputation in some places in the world. That is has returned to developed countries has probably other issues instead of propaganda. But there aren't any propaganda campaigns in western nations that disincentive vaccination that would create the need for government to spy on your devices. These alleged propaganda campaigns would be easy to find, no? Since they target a broad audience?

JoshTko 2y ago

It's just a ROI calculation. A Russian fighter jet costs $25 mil, so a rational course of action would to weigh the benefit of buying another jet vs. buying a dozen congressmen, or flooding social media with misinformation to cancel a multi billion dollar defense bill for Ukraine.

hypertele-Xii 2y ago
When God was abandoned, money became the top object of worship. Is that experiment going well yet?
- joquarky 2y ago
  Which god figure are you referring to? For example, Abrahamic religious leaders have made the concept of god toxic. But if you go by their dogma, then their god is responsible for the state of things. Many of the non-abrahamic religions in the USA don't even have a god in the same sense, or they see their (equivalent to) god as the fabric of the cosmos and thereby not able to be abandoned. I agree about the money though. It is the leading religion now.