7 ms·

It's not all subsidies though. Havent Tesla's subsidies in the USA run out?

by concordDance 2y ago

constantcrying 2y ago
Tesla sales dropped significantly. This comes after Germany has cut subsidies for EVs. Tesla is now laying off staff.
- starbugs 2y ago
  I've recently considered buying an EV. I've come to the conclusion that it only makes sense if you can charge at home and won't frequently go on longer road trips. Even then, I might still consider it too expensive/risky at this point. It comes down to a few reasons for me: * If you can't charge at home, EVs generally don't seem to make economical sense * The charging network is not well enough developed, especially when considering peak times like public holidays etc. * If you don't have access to the Tesla supercharger network, you will very likely overpay on charging. So much so that it makes an ICE car look cheap to refuel. * Getting a used EV is still a very weird experience with one of the most important indicators very hard to determine: battery health I wonder if evaluations similar to mine have led to many people in the US owning EVs only as their second car and still retain an ICE car "on the side" (or vice versa). If these issues are not resolved, I expect the EV market share to top at about 30% for the foreseeable future. Hybrids and CNG vehicles seem to be a more economical and practical alternative for the masses while also significantly reducing emissions when compared to traditional ICE cars.
  - EVyesnoyesnoyes 2y ago
    I haven't charged at home for nearly 2 years. It was not an issue. Nonetheless, you can charge your EV on a normal powerplug. Should be very easy for home owners to charge at home. No clue about the charging network in US, in EU its good enough. Tesla is cheaper and more expensive in germany, it highly depends on what you use. EVs show that batterie life is no real issue. Not a bigger concern than your engine block breaking. Hybrids have horrible co2 values and CNG are very limited available while a plug is available nearly everywere. I have charged at hotels often enough now. EV is a lot more fun to drive and its easy to save a lot if you have solar panels. I don't think it will top at 30% (what a random number).
    - starbugs 2y ago
      > I haven't charged at home for nearly 2 years. It was not an issue. How frequently do you drive and how long are your trips? Where and on what network do you charge? What do you pay for charging? > Nonetheless, you can charge your EV on a normal powerplug. Should be very easy for home owners to charge at home. What if you aren't a home owner? What if you are a home owner and the car parking is too far away from your house? > No clue about the charging network in US, in EU its good enough. Where in the EU are you talking about? These all look like blanket statements to me as they don't consider the real context of a person trying to decide if an EV is practical for them. > Tesla is cheaper and more expensive in germany What does that mean? > EVs show that batterie life is no real issue. Not a bigger concern than your engine block breaking. An engine block breaking is a real issue. That's why mileage is reported and it's quite common to do inspections before buying a used car. Battery health is not reported and there is no straightforward way to do an inspection. > EV is a lot more fun to drive and its easy to save a lot if you have solar panels. What if you don't have solar panels and are on a budget? Does it help that it's fun to drive if you can't afford it or it makes your life impractical? > 30% (what a random number) I said "at about 30%". It's a gut guess, so not completely random. I think in general this conversation is a good example of how some people assume that their privileged life situation is just normal and everybody owns a home with solar panels and a garage with a charger. But that's not true. Maybe 30% of people can afford that, hence my gut guess on the "random" number.
      - EVyesnoyesnoyes 2y ago
        >> I haven't charged at home for nearly 2 years. It was not an issue. >How frequently do you drive and how long are your trips? Where and on what network do you charge? What do you pay for charging? Between 40 and 60 cent per kWh. Around 1200km/month. >> Nonetheless, you can charge your EV on a normal powerplug. Should be very easy for home owners to charge at home. > What if you aren't a home owner? What if you are a home owner and the car parking is too far away from your house? I'm a flat owner and got my charging setup 3 month ago in the underground parking lot. We had to discuss it in the owner meeting and germany made a law which enforces them to take it seriuos. If legal reasons are not solving your issue or you can't charge, you are probably not a good candidate for EV right now. >> No clue about the charging network in US, in EU its good enough. > Where in the EU are you talking about? These all look like blanket statements to me as they don't consider the real context of a person trying to decide if an EV is practical for them. Same with your statement tbh. My EV can hold 500km / 310 miles. I have a charging spot 15 minutes away by foot. It really really didn't matter to me to think about charging a little bit more. >> Tesla is cheaper and more expensive in germany > What does that mean? Tesla has daily rates, special offers and a membership. Others like EnBW has this too. There are a lot of apps and rates you can get from different companies. Tesla charging network is just one. >> EVs show that batterie life is no real issue. Not a bigger concern than your engine block breaking. > An engine block breaking is a real issue. That's why mileage is reported and it's quite common to do inspections before buying a used car. Battery health is not reported and there is no straightforward way to do an inspection. But we do know from existing EVs (we have them already for a long time now) that the battery health is not a big issue. >> EV is a lot more fun to drive and its easy to save a lot if you have solar panels. > What if you don't have solar panels and are on a budget? Does it help that it's fun to drive if you can't afford it or it makes your life impractical? No and people who can't afford it are not the people who should start buying EVs right now. I think thats a communication missconception. Plenty of people who can afford EVs are not buying them, if you are not the right person, your only action you should do is to say 'i want an affordable EV and laws making it possible'. Nonetheless i'm a little bit idealistic and think we need to change. >> 30% (what a random number) > I said "at about 30%". It's a gut guess, so not completely random. If you are not an automotive expert, your gut guess is random. Right now we are at 2%! If breakthroughs are happening (solid state, cheaper, ...) it can easily jump faster than you think. If you don't have anything to say why it should platoon at 30% its random. > I think in general this conversation is a good example of how some people assume that their privileged life situation is just normal and everybody owns a home with solar panels and a garage with a charger. But that's not true. Maybe 30% of people can afford that, hence my gut guess on the "random" number. I believe that people who are absolutly NOT in the position at all to think about EVs are feeling addressed.
  - nielsbot 2y ago
    One factor you aren't mentioning: EVs are a better experience overall. I love the way my EV drives (Model Y) and, there's no engine noise, and finally (this is a much smaller point) I can sit in the car and run the heat or A/C w/o an idling ICE powering that.
    - starbugs 2y ago
      That's why I considered buying one in the first place. I don't dislike EVs in general. It's just that the points I mentioned don't justify the benefits at this point for me. "A better experience overall" should include the practical and economical factors. The primary purpose of a car is to get from A to B without going financially or temporally bankrupt.
    - constantcrying 2y ago
      The majority of the noise, even at relatively low speeds, comes from the tires. Additionally the low noise at low speed is an actual danger to pedestrians, which deserves a remedy. EVs also have significant drawbacks in usability. E.g. if you don't have person chargers or need to drive long distances. >I love the way my EV drives Which isn't a function of the electric Motor. ICE cars, especially in the Tesla price range have great suspension and steering tuning as well.
      - HDThoreaun 2y ago
        EVs have much more torque than comparable ICE cars. Even the cheapest EVs out there have very high torque when compared to almost any ICE cars.
        constantcrying 2y ago
        And? Seriously, who cares? Of the qualities of an EV this is about the least important I can imagine. Aggressive acceleration does not make or break a good car. For most people comfort is an important factor, there torque is irrelevant. Well tuned suspension, steering, high quality seats and a good infotainment system is important for that.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    We bought an EV 4 years ago and our second vehicle is still ICE. But it's not for any of the reasons you listed. The EV is the far superior vehicle, both for road trips and local trips. We've done 4 2000 mile trips in it, and many 500 mile ones. The reason we still have an ICE vehicle is because it's rarely used because it's so inferior. We only use it when we are going in two different directions simultaneously. It only gets 3000 miles/year of use, it's not worth replacing. It'll get replaced whenever something expensive on it dies.
    - starbugs 2y ago
      I will ask the same question here. Do you have access to charging at home? That's the single most decisive factor in my estimation for whether an EV can replace an ICE car realistically or not at this time.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Tesla is also getting a lot of competition from cheaper competitors and the interest rates going up is putting people off large sticker prices and their models aren't getting refreshed at the rate of other brands. I think both @concordDance and @littlestymaar are correct: It's not all subsidies even though subsidies did play a big part. It's good that governments gave those subsidies out, and this is the right time to end them. The future is bright.
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    Tesla has always been a luxury brand, which means that depending on the situation people can easily be priced out of those cars. >this is the right time to end them I mean it did give a boost to ICE sales and make companies reconsider their jump away from those.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      > Tesla has always been a luxury brand I disagree. While they have a sticker price implying luxury, they justify the price on the grounds of electricity being cheaper than petrol and diesel, not on build quality. > I mean it did give a boost to ICE sales and make companies reconsider their jump away from those. Always would in the short term, but the main cost and supply limit is batteries, and supply is now high enough (and cost low enough) that governments are better off just mandating the change rather than subsidising it; there's a few examples around the world of governments subsidising petrol, with the obvious results — everyone has backed the subsidy into their lives, and it would be political suicide to remove even in dictatorships. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidies_in_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidies_in_Iran
      - constantcrying 2y ago
        >While they have a sticker price implying luxury, they justify the price on the grounds of electricity being cheaper than petrol and diesel, not on build quality. Yes, certainly Tesla isn't known for build quality. But they don't even try to enter the low cost or budget EV market. High sticker prices for bad cars screams failed luxury to me.
- concordDance 2y ago
  Sure, but they're still able to sell cars and at a profit even without subsidies, so the market can survive without them.
  - littlestymaar 2y ago
    If the market survives but plateaus at its current level (~15% of car sales Worldwide) then we're still stuck with ICE cars everywhere…
    - ben_w 2y ago
      I don't think we need to worry about that hypothetical: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic...

It's not all subsidies though. Havent Tesla's subsidies in the USA run out?

constantcrying 2y ago

Tesla sales dropped significantly. This comes after Germany has cut subsidies for EVs. Tesla is now laying off staff.

starbugs 2y ago
I've recently considered buying an EV. I've come to the conclusion that it only makes sense if you can charge at home and won't frequently go on longer road trips. Even then, I might still consider it too expensive/risky at this point. It comes down to a few reasons for me: * If you can't charge at home, EVs generally don't seem to make economical sense * The charging network is not well enough developed, especially when considering peak times like public holidays etc. * If you don't have access to the Tesla supercharger network, you will very likely overpay on charging. So much so that it makes an ICE car look cheap to refuel. * Getting a used EV is still a very weird experience with one of the most important indicators very hard to determine: battery health I wonder if evaluations similar to mine have led to many people in the US owning EVs only as their second car and still retain an ICE car "on the side" (or vice versa). If these issues are not resolved, I expect the EV market share to top at about 30% for the foreseeable future. Hybrids and CNG vehicles seem to be a more economical and practical alternative for the masses while also significantly reducing emissions when compared to traditional ICE cars.
- EVyesnoyesnoyes 2y ago
  I haven't charged at home for nearly 2 years. It was not an issue. Nonetheless, you can charge your EV on a normal powerplug. Should be very easy for home owners to charge at home. No clue about the charging network in US, in EU its good enough. Tesla is cheaper and more expensive in germany, it highly depends on what you use. EVs show that batterie life is no real issue. Not a bigger concern than your engine block breaking. Hybrids have horrible co2 values and CNG are very limited available while a plug is available nearly everywere. I have charged at hotels often enough now. EV is a lot more fun to drive and its easy to save a lot if you have solar panels. I don't think it will top at 30% (what a random number).
  - starbugs 2y ago
    > I haven't charged at home for nearly 2 years. It was not an issue. How frequently do you drive and how long are your trips? Where and on what network do you charge? What do you pay for charging? > Nonetheless, you can charge your EV on a normal powerplug. Should be very easy for home owners to charge at home. What if you aren't a home owner? What if you are a home owner and the car parking is too far away from your house? > No clue about the charging network in US, in EU its good enough. Where in the EU are you talking about? These all look like blanket statements to me as they don't consider the real context of a person trying to decide if an EV is practical for them. > Tesla is cheaper and more expensive in germany What does that mean? > EVs show that batterie life is no real issue. Not a bigger concern than your engine block breaking. An engine block breaking is a real issue. That's why mileage is reported and it's quite common to do inspections before buying a used car. Battery health is not reported and there is no straightforward way to do an inspection. > EV is a lot more fun to drive and its easy to save a lot if you have solar panels. What if you don't have solar panels and are on a budget? Does it help that it's fun to drive if you can't afford it or it makes your life impractical? > 30% (what a random number) I said "at about 30%". It's a gut guess, so not completely random. I think in general this conversation is a good example of how some people assume that their privileged life situation is just normal and everybody owns a home with solar panels and a garage with a charger. But that's not true. Maybe 30% of people can afford that, hence my gut guess on the "random" number.
    - EVyesnoyesnoyes 2y ago
      >> I haven't charged at home for nearly 2 years. It was not an issue. >How frequently do you drive and how long are your trips? Where and on what network do you charge? What do you pay for charging? Between 40 and 60 cent per kWh. Around 1200km/month. >> Nonetheless, you can charge your EV on a normal powerplug. Should be very easy for home owners to charge at home. > What if you aren't a home owner? What if you are a home owner and the car parking is too far away from your house? I'm a flat owner and got my charging setup 3 month ago in the underground parking lot. We had to discuss it in the owner meeting and germany made a law which enforces them to take it seriuos. If legal reasons are not solving your issue or you can't charge, you are probably not a good candidate for EV right now. >> No clue about the charging network in US, in EU its good enough. > Where in the EU are you talking about? These all look like blanket statements to me as they don't consider the real context of a person trying to decide if an EV is practical for them. Same with your statement tbh. My EV can hold 500km / 310 miles. I have a charging spot 15 minutes away by foot. It really really didn't matter to me to think about charging a little bit more. >> Tesla is cheaper and more expensive in germany > What does that mean? Tesla has daily rates, special offers and a membership. Others like EnBW has this too. There are a lot of apps and rates you can get from different companies. Tesla charging network is just one. >> EVs show that batterie life is no real issue. Not a bigger concern than your engine block breaking. > An engine block breaking is a real issue. That's why mileage is reported and it's quite common to do inspections before buying a used car. Battery health is not reported and there is no straightforward way to do an inspection. But we do know from existing EVs (we have them already for a long time now) that the battery health is not a big issue. >> EV is a lot more fun to drive and its easy to save a lot if you have solar panels. > What if you don't have solar panels and are on a budget? Does it help that it's fun to drive if you can't afford it or it makes your life impractical? No and people who can't afford it are not the people who should start buying EVs right now. I think thats a communication missconception. Plenty of people who can afford EVs are not buying them, if you are not the right person, your only action you should do is to say 'i want an affordable EV and laws making it possible'. Nonetheless i'm a little bit idealistic and think we need to change. >> 30% (what a random number) > I said "at about 30%". It's a gut guess, so not completely random. If you are not an automotive expert, your gut guess is random. Right now we are at 2%! If breakthroughs are happening (solid state, cheaper, ...) it can easily jump faster than you think. If you don't have anything to say why it should platoon at 30% its random. > I think in general this conversation is a good example of how some people assume that their privileged life situation is just normal and everybody owns a home with solar panels and a garage with a charger. But that's not true. Maybe 30% of people can afford that, hence my gut guess on the "random" number. I believe that people who are absolutly NOT in the position at all to think about EVs are feeling addressed.
- nielsbot 2y ago
  One factor you aren't mentioning: EVs are a better experience overall. I love the way my EV drives (Model Y) and, there's no engine noise, and finally (this is a much smaller point) I can sit in the car and run the heat or A/C w/o an idling ICE powering that.
  - starbugs 2y ago
    That's why I considered buying one in the first place. I don't dislike EVs in general. It's just that the points I mentioned don't justify the benefits at this point for me. "A better experience overall" should include the practical and economical factors. The primary purpose of a car is to get from A to B without going financially or temporally bankrupt.
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    The majority of the noise, even at relatively low speeds, comes from the tires. Additionally the low noise at low speed is an actual danger to pedestrians, which deserves a remedy. EVs also have significant drawbacks in usability. E.g. if you don't have person chargers or need to drive long distances. >I love the way my EV drives Which isn't a function of the electric Motor. ICE cars, especially in the Tesla price range have great suspension and steering tuning as well.
    - HDThoreaun 2y ago
      EVs have much more torque than comparable ICE cars. Even the cheapest EVs out there have very high torque when compared to almost any ICE cars.
      - constantcrying 2y ago
        And? Seriously, who cares? Of the qualities of an EV this is about the least important I can imagine. Aggressive acceleration does not make or break a good car. For most people comfort is an important factor, there torque is irrelevant. Well tuned suspension, steering, high quality seats and a good infotainment system is important for that.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  We bought an EV 4 years ago and our second vehicle is still ICE. But it's not for any of the reasons you listed. The EV is the far superior vehicle, both for road trips and local trips. We've done 4 2000 mile trips in it, and many 500 mile ones. The reason we still have an ICE vehicle is because it's rarely used because it's so inferior. We only use it when we are going in two different directions simultaneously. It only gets 3000 miles/year of use, it's not worth replacing. It'll get replaced whenever something expensive on it dies.
  - starbugs 2y ago
    I will ask the same question here. Do you have access to charging at home? That's the single most decisive factor in my estimation for whether an EV can replace an ICE car realistically or not at this time.
ben_w 2y ago
Tesla is also getting a lot of competition from cheaper competitors and the interest rates going up is putting people off large sticker prices and their models aren't getting refreshed at the rate of other brands. I think both @concordDance and @littlestymaar are correct: It's not all subsidies even though subsidies did play a big part. It's good that governments gave those subsidies out, and this is the right time to end them. The future is bright.
- constantcrying 2y ago
  Tesla has always been a luxury brand, which means that depending on the situation people can easily be priced out of those cars. >this is the right time to end them I mean it did give a boost to ICE sales and make companies reconsider their jump away from those.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    > Tesla has always been a luxury brand I disagree. While they have a sticker price implying luxury, they justify the price on the grounds of electricity being cheaper than petrol and diesel, not on build quality. > I mean it did give a boost to ICE sales and make companies reconsider their jump away from those. Always would in the short term, but the main cost and supply limit is batteries, and supply is now high enough (and cost low enough) that governments are better off just mandating the change rather than subsidising it; there's a few examples around the world of governments subsidising petrol, with the obvious results — everyone has backed the subsidy into their lives, and it would be political suicide to remove even in dictatorships. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidies_in_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidies_in_Iran
    - constantcrying 2y ago
      >While they have a sticker price implying luxury, they justify the price on the grounds of electricity being cheaper than petrol and diesel, not on build quality. Yes, certainly Tesla isn't known for build quality. But they don't even try to enter the low cost or budget EV market. High sticker prices for bad cars screams failed luxury to me.
concordDance 2y ago
Sure, but they're still able to sell cars and at a profit even without subsidies, so the market can survive without them.
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  If the market survives but plateaus at its current level (~15% of car sales Worldwide) then we're still stuck with ICE cars everywhere…
  - ben_w 2y ago
    I don't think we need to worry about that hypothetical: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic...