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Here's something to think about: When you need politicians (one of the most hated occupations known to man) to force people to buy EVs with arbitrary legal man

Here's something to think about: When you need politicians (one of the most hated occupations known to man) to force people to buy EVs with arbitrary legal mandates, the success of EVs is probably massively overexaggerated.

TheAlchemist 3y ago
Yeah exactly. Here are stats for New Zealand - since January 2024, there are no more government subsides for EVs. Easy to spot on the chart. https://evdb.nz/ev-stats https://evdb.nz/ev-stats
- concordDance 3y ago
  Part of that will be people rushing to purchase just before the subsidies end. You'd need to see trends for the full year to draw conclusions.
  - TheAlchemist 3y ago
    Good point actually, didn't thought about that.
Ekaros 3y ago
Also considering how often they personally use EVs as government vehicles. Surely these should be first on the line to swap. And private citizens would follow this example.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  That is the case, though. For a few years the only electric vans I saw around here were state and semi-state agencies (the post office, the gas and electricity networks, etc). Now private ones are showing up too. Governments don’t operate many passenger cars, and that’s where the ev ‘revolution’ largely started, so you can’t expect them to have been doing this from the very start.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    I mean ministers and other head of states. Like is there any single reason why Biden has not already replaced the Presidential state car with BEV? Surely if it is good enough for voters it is good enough for him.
    - rsynnott 3y ago
      Oh, right. That would be very expensive (head-of-state cars are often essentially one-offs, are replaced rarely, and have unusual operational requirements), and would seem rather performative? Ministerial cars etc would be more practical, but you're probably talking about, what, maximum 50 vehicles per country? There was a minor scandal in Ireland last year because, of the 30 of so cars used for ministerial protection (this was only reintroduced as a thing the previous year; before that ministers had to get around on their own), only one was electric, and 9 of them weren't even PHEVs. This feels like relatively a fuss about nothing; the state (or semi-states) also operates over 2,000 buses, of which currently only about 100 are fully electric, say (another 300 on order). That feels like a better place to focus than a fleet of 30 cars, many of which don't see a lot of use.
      - Dalewyn 3y ago
        >you're probably talking about, what, maximum 50 vehicles per country? It's the principle of the matter. It's like how politicians and talking heads flying by executive jet to a metropolitan dinner party can't and won't convince the commons to not travel and not eat hearty meals and not drink good booze.
        rsynnott 3y ago
        I don't think it is; in this instance the electric car would be much more expensive than the mid-range Volvos or similar traditionally used in this role. Like, I'd expect that these cars will be electric sooner or later, but replacing them out of sync would probably not be the best use of funds.
constantcrying 3y ago
Germany had dropped subsidies and now demand has dropped drastically. Really unsurprising to be honest.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  Sure, capitalism wins here as usual - there has been well over a century worth of r&d to make insanely cheap ICE vehicles at scale. With electric vehicles, even Tesla doesn't have two decades (of which they spent a lot of time in small production) under their belt. Take away the subsidies and ICE vehicles win out again - there is no other way than subsidies to overcome the chicken and egg problem.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    Nonsense. EVs are expensive because of batteries, which have had R&D for a very long time. An EV isn't magic, it is still a car, much of the car R&D still applies.
  - dzhiurgis 3y ago
    Depends where you live. If you got cheap power and expensive gasoline TCO of EV is no doubt less than ICE.
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  It's been five months. Do we have enough data to make conclusions? Did the people who were going to buy an EV in February, buy ICEs instead? Could they just be saving for a little longer?
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    >It's been five months. Do we have enough data to make conclusions? Car sales are up, EV sales are down. I can't think of an explanation which is more convincing. >Could they just be saving for a little longer? For what? I can't imagine anything which would turn me more off from buying an EV than saving for one and then being told I now need to pay thousands of Euros more. Surely every single person who was saving for one has now bought an ICE vehicle they can easily afford. Of course many car sales are through financing and leases anyway.
jampekka 3y ago
Where does the government force people to buy EVs, or any other vehicles?
- VBprogrammer 3y ago
  The turn around in narrative from the pseudo-Libertarian community is fucking hilarious to me. Remember when big government and their industrial cronies conspired to kill the electric car? Cars with a fraction of the range or performance of modern electric cars. Electric vehicles are probably the best compromise between practically and freedom from government interference you can buy. Literally throw some solar panels on your roof and charge your car, as long as you've got enough energy coming in you can drive where you like within about a 100 mile radius (further away you'll need some grid support).
oblio 3y ago
This is a chicken and egg problem. How do you break the stranglehold of probably 30-50% of the economy being closely tied or part of oil and gas and the automotive industries? "The market" might solve this problem in 200 years, when Earth would look like Mercury.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  By selling an objectively superior product that wins peoples' wallets. Apple singlehandedly killed off the entire flipphone and boardphone (Blackberry) markets. It's definitely hard and rightfully so, but it's not impossible.
  - oblio 3y ago
    > By selling an objectively superior product that wins peoples' wallets. Yeah, I have several bridges in Brooklyn to sell you if you think people or markets are rational. If they would be, at least 20% (if not 40%) of this planet would be riding bikes to most places they go to. They don't, and they frequently campaign against improvements to bike infrastructure. We're all going to burn at this rate.
Swenrekcah 3y ago
Nobody has been forced to buy an EV anywhere in the world. Also this contempt for politicians in general is unhelpful and only serves to put more and more unscrupulous and dishonest people in those positions.

TheAlchemist 3y ago

Yeah exactly. Here are stats for New Zealand - since January 2024, there are no more government subsides for EVs. Easy to spot on the chart. https://evdb.nz/ev-stats https://evdb.nz/ev-stats

concordDance 3y ago
Part of that will be people rushing to purchase just before the subsidies end. You'd need to see trends for the full year to draw conclusions.
- TheAlchemist 3y ago
  Good point actually, didn't thought about that.

Ekaros 3y ago

Also considering how often they personally use EVs as government vehicles. Surely these should be first on the line to swap. And private citizens would follow this example.

rsynnott 3y ago
That is the case, though. For a few years the only electric vans I saw around here were state and semi-state agencies (the post office, the gas and electricity networks, etc). Now private ones are showing up too. Governments don’t operate many passenger cars, and that’s where the ev ‘revolution’ largely started, so you can’t expect them to have been doing this from the very start.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  I mean ministers and other head of states. Like is there any single reason why Biden has not already replaced the Presidential state car with BEV? Surely if it is good enough for voters it is good enough for him.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    Oh, right. That would be very expensive (head-of-state cars are often essentially one-offs, are replaced rarely, and have unusual operational requirements), and would seem rather performative? Ministerial cars etc would be more practical, but you're probably talking about, what, maximum 50 vehicles per country? There was a minor scandal in Ireland last year because, of the 30 of so cars used for ministerial protection (this was only reintroduced as a thing the previous year; before that ministers had to get around on their own), only one was electric, and 9 of them weren't even PHEVs. This feels like relatively a fuss about nothing; the state (or semi-states) also operates over 2,000 buses, of which currently only about 100 are fully electric, say (another 300 on order). That feels like a better place to focus than a fleet of 30 cars, many of which don't see a lot of use.
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      >you're probably talking about, what, maximum 50 vehicles per country? It's the principle of the matter. It's like how politicians and talking heads flying by executive jet to a metropolitan dinner party can't and won't convince the commons to not travel and not eat hearty meals and not drink good booze.
      - rsynnott 3y ago
        I don't think it is; in this instance the electric car would be much more expensive than the mid-range Volvos or similar traditionally used in this role. Like, I'd expect that these cars will be electric sooner or later, but replacing them out of sync would probably not be the best use of funds.

constantcrying 3y ago

Germany had dropped subsidies and now demand has dropped drastically. Really unsurprising to be honest.

mschuster91 3y ago
Sure, capitalism wins here as usual - there has been well over a century worth of r&d to make insanely cheap ICE vehicles at scale. With electric vehicles, even Tesla doesn't have two decades (of which they spent a lot of time in small production) under their belt. Take away the subsidies and ICE vehicles win out again - there is no other way than subsidies to overcome the chicken and egg problem.
- constantcrying 3y ago
  Nonsense. EVs are expensive because of batteries, which have had R&D for a very long time. An EV isn't magic, it is still a car, much of the car R&D still applies.
- dzhiurgis 3y ago
  Depends where you live. If you got cheap power and expensive gasoline TCO of EV is no doubt less than ICE.
Toutouxc 3y ago
It's been five months. Do we have enough data to make conclusions? Did the people who were going to buy an EV in February, buy ICEs instead? Could they just be saving for a little longer?
- constantcrying 3y ago
  >It's been five months. Do we have enough data to make conclusions? Car sales are up, EV sales are down. I can't think of an explanation which is more convincing. >Could they just be saving for a little longer? For what? I can't imagine anything which would turn me more off from buying an EV than saving for one and then being told I now need to pay thousands of Euros more. Surely every single person who was saving for one has now bought an ICE vehicle they can easily afford. Of course many car sales are through financing and leases anyway.

jampekka 3y ago

Where does the government force people to buy EVs, or any other vehicles?

VBprogrammer 3y ago
The turn around in narrative from the pseudo-Libertarian community is fucking hilarious to me. Remember when big government and their industrial cronies conspired to kill the electric car? Cars with a fraction of the range or performance of modern electric cars. Electric vehicles are probably the best compromise between practically and freedom from government interference you can buy. Literally throw some solar panels on your roof and charge your car, as long as you've got enough energy coming in you can drive where you like within about a 100 mile radius (further away you'll need some grid support).

oblio 3y ago

This is a chicken and egg problem. How do you break the stranglehold of probably 30-50% of the economy being closely tied or part of oil and gas and the automotive industries? "The market" might solve this problem in 200 years, when Earth would look like Mercury.

Dalewyn 3y ago
By selling an objectively superior product that wins peoples' wallets. Apple singlehandedly killed off the entire flipphone and boardphone (Blackberry) markets. It's definitely hard and rightfully so, but it's not impossible.
- oblio 3y ago
  > By selling an objectively superior product that wins peoples' wallets. Yeah, I have several bridges in Brooklyn to sell you if you think people or markets are rational. If they would be, at least 20% (if not 40%) of this planet would be riding bikes to most places they go to. They don't, and they frequently campaign against improvements to bike infrastructure. We're all going to burn at this rate.

Swenrekcah 3y ago

Nobody has been forced to buy an EV anywhere in the world. Also this contempt for politicians in general is unhelpful and only serves to put more and more unscrupulous and dishonest people in those positions.