3 ms·

It's less misleading then you might think. There are cases (enough to not be treated as just some random coincidence; with and without vaccination) where peopl

It's less misleading then you might think. There are cases (enough to not be treated as just some random coincidence; with and without vaccination) where people after Covid had a sever reduction of cognitive abilities that they have problems filling out relatively simple forms. So we can clearly speak of a reduction of IQ. And while there is a lot of research needed and a lot of open questions and already half a year (or so?) into the pandemic we did know from how we observed COVID affecting the brain that it likely will cause a reduction in cognitive abilities at least in some cases which matches the (very many) observations we had since then. This also matches what we know from other older studies about other virus infections which have some similarity with covid, e.g. causing Neuroinflammation. So every thing we observe and do know about the underlying mechanics implies that there is very likely a causation. (Through we need more studies for Neuroinflammation.) So scientist do need to research it more and do need to pin down the exact mechanisms this causes reduction of cognitive abilities in some cases to largely varying degrees and how much of it is a direct and a indirect e.g. psychological effect. But for everyone else it best to assume that getting COVID might reduce IQ if they are unlucky. Because if you aren't a doctor, scientist or similar but just a random person who got COVID it kind doesn't matter if your IQ gets reduced by COVID directly or indirectly or just correlated due to some other factor you don't know about and in turn can't systematically avoid.

freehorse 3y ago
I do not think IQ tests are meant or designed to measure effects from illness. We do not say that IQ drops when you are sick with the flu and have high fever that makes it hard to think. IQ does not drop when you wake up groggy in the morning up until you drink coffee. I am not sure why people use IQ here instead of referring specifically to brain fog and other symptoms of post-COVID infection. IQ does not drop when you get sick and does not increase when you get treatment. If that is the case, then it is even worse measure than it is supposed to be, because it does not measure anything remotely stable.
- DoughnutHole 3y ago
  Who says there’s even anything stable to measure? If “intelligence” is just the degree/quality of someone’s brain function then your intelligence does drop when your brain function is impaired, and you would expect that to be picked up in an intelligence test. Culturally we may want to imagine intelligence as something constant and innate to somebody’s soul, but in reality it’s innate to a fragile and fickle organ inside your skull.
  - freehorse 3y ago
    > Culturally we may want to imagine intelligence as something constant and innate to somebody’s soul, but in reality it’s innate to a fragile and fickle organ inside your skull. Which is also my issue with IQ tests and the relationship of the tests and what they measure. But that changes nothing: IQ tests are not supposed to measure _that_ variability of when you get sick. Or you wake up. Or you are drunk. It makes no sense to use a psychometric test completely out of the context of which it was validated and meant to be used, because then the results are not interpretable. People with that kind of post-covid syndrom have an illness and experience cognitive deficits because of that, but using IQ to measure intelligence in that case when what you actually (want to) measure is brain fog is absurd. That should require a brain fog screening, not an IQ test.
    - Vecr 3y ago
      One of the major uses of IQ tests is to measure brain damage, otherwise why would they be mostly calibrated in the downwards direction? Who do you think pays for these things?
      - tivert 3y ago
        > otherwise why would they be mostly calibrated in the downwards direction? Who do you think pays for these things? I always assumed it was because there are people born with impaired intellectual abilities, and having some measure of how impaired they are would be significant for things like edibility for benefits and management of their condition (e.g. goals for the school system).
- k__ 3y ago
  The tests themselves are misleading. If I do one sober, I have an IQ of 110, if I do it with my ADHD meds, it goes up to 120. Is that because the meds make me smarter? No, it's because I don't lose attention after 10 minutes of test and can concentrate until the end. However, the numbers imply otherwise.
  - fireflash38 3y ago
    One could argue that concentration is an aspect of intelligence.
    - atwrk 3y ago
      It isn't though, but both intelligence and concentration are necessary for actual performance. Intelligence is only a potential.
      - spacebacon 3y ago
        Concentration is an aspect of applied intelligence. To take an IQ test is to measure applied intelligence.
  - mcphage 3y ago
    > Is that because the meds make me smarter? At some level, IQ tests measure your ability to take IQ tests. So it would make sense that your measured IQ would go up when you're on ADHD meds, since those will obviously have an effect on your ability to take IQ tests.
  - lostmsu 3y ago
    Maybe yes, they do. Have you seen this famous article after GPT-2 came out? https://www.skynettoday.com/editorials/humans-not-concentrating https://www.skynettoday.com/editorials/humans-not-concentrat...
cies 3y ago
> But for everyone else it best to assume that getting COVID might reduce IQ if they are unlucky. Why assume it if it's not proven yet? We had crazy assumptions on the way lightning worked, I'm glad we have empirical natural sciences now to counter these "wide spread assumptions". Wrt covid and IQ. Say that during covid IQs measurably dropped: why says its not the WFH, the fear that was rampant or the mRNA vaccine that was massively injected? There for we need bigger studies, control groups, randomization. All of this is there for good reasons (and a lot of this was skipped in the development of mRNA vaccines for a bad reason: fear).
CiteXieAlAlyEtc 3y ago
Seconding the sentiment here. Quibbling about "causal" being used in the title aside, we're building more observational evidence that there's negative cognitive effects associated with covid and long covid. Zhao et al '24 [0] comes immediately to mind; operating on a radically different set of people and data sets from Al-Aly and the gang, they find substantial differences in simple reaction time between covid and no-covid groups. It seems we're in a phase of the pandemic where denying long tail effects is going to become more prominent as concerning evidence continues to pile up. The name of the game is still to reduce your infection count as much as possible. Stay safe out there, share aerosols unprotected at your own peril. [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(24)00013-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5... "Long COVID is associated with severe cognitive slowing: a multicentre cross-sectional study"

freehorse 3y ago

I do not think IQ tests are meant or designed to measure effects from illness. We do not say that IQ drops when you are sick with the flu and have high fever that makes it hard to think. IQ does not drop when you wake up groggy in the morning up until you drink coffee. I am not sure why people use IQ here instead of referring specifically to brain fog and other symptoms of post-COVID infection. IQ does not drop when you get sick and does not increase when you get treatment. If that is the case, then it is even worse measure than it is supposed to be, because it does not measure anything remotely stable.

DoughnutHole 3y ago
Who says there’s even anything stable to measure? If “intelligence” is just the degree/quality of someone’s brain function then your intelligence does drop when your brain function is impaired, and you would expect that to be picked up in an intelligence test. Culturally we may want to imagine intelligence as something constant and innate to somebody’s soul, but in reality it’s innate to a fragile and fickle organ inside your skull.
- freehorse 3y ago
  > Culturally we may want to imagine intelligence as something constant and innate to somebody’s soul, but in reality it’s innate to a fragile and fickle organ inside your skull. Which is also my issue with IQ tests and the relationship of the tests and what they measure. But that changes nothing: IQ tests are not supposed to measure _that_ variability of when you get sick. Or you wake up. Or you are drunk. It makes no sense to use a psychometric test completely out of the context of which it was validated and meant to be used, because then the results are not interpretable. People with that kind of post-covid syndrom have an illness and experience cognitive deficits because of that, but using IQ to measure intelligence in that case when what you actually (want to) measure is brain fog is absurd. That should require a brain fog screening, not an IQ test.
  - Vecr 3y ago
    One of the major uses of IQ tests is to measure brain damage, otherwise why would they be mostly calibrated in the downwards direction? Who do you think pays for these things?
    - tivert 3y ago
      > otherwise why would they be mostly calibrated in the downwards direction? Who do you think pays for these things? I always assumed it was because there are people born with impaired intellectual abilities, and having some measure of how impaired they are would be significant for things like edibility for benefits and management of their condition (e.g. goals for the school system).
k__ 3y ago
The tests themselves are misleading. If I do one sober, I have an IQ of 110, if I do it with my ADHD meds, it goes up to 120. Is that because the meds make me smarter? No, it's because I don't lose attention after 10 minutes of test and can concentrate until the end. However, the numbers imply otherwise.
- fireflash38 3y ago
  One could argue that concentration is an aspect of intelligence.
  - atwrk 3y ago
    It isn't though, but both intelligence and concentration are necessary for actual performance. Intelligence is only a potential.
    - spacebacon 3y ago
      Concentration is an aspect of applied intelligence. To take an IQ test is to measure applied intelligence.
- mcphage 3y ago
  > Is that because the meds make me smarter? At some level, IQ tests measure your ability to take IQ tests. So it would make sense that your measured IQ would go up when you're on ADHD meds, since those will obviously have an effect on your ability to take IQ tests.
- lostmsu 3y ago
  Maybe yes, they do. Have you seen this famous article after GPT-2 came out? https://www.skynettoday.com/editorials/humans-not-concentrating https://www.skynettoday.com/editorials/humans-not-concentrat...

cies 3y ago

> But for everyone else it best to assume that getting COVID might reduce IQ if they are unlucky. Why assume it if it's not proven yet? We had crazy assumptions on the way lightning worked, I'm glad we have empirical natural sciences now to counter these "wide spread assumptions". Wrt covid and IQ. Say that during covid IQs measurably dropped: why says its not the WFH, the fear that was rampant or the mRNA vaccine that was massively injected? There for we need bigger studies, control groups, randomization. All of this is there for good reasons (and a lot of this was skipped in the development of mRNA vaccines for a bad reason: fear).

CiteXieAlAlyEtc 3y ago

Seconding the sentiment here. Quibbling about "causal" being used in the title aside, we're building more observational evidence that there's negative cognitive effects associated with covid and long covid. Zhao et al '24 [0] comes immediately to mind; operating on a radically different set of people and data sets from Al-Aly and the gang, they find substantial differences in simple reaction time between covid and no-covid groups. It seems we're in a phase of the pandemic where denying long tail effects is going to become more prominent as concerning evidence continues to pile up. The name of the game is still to reduce your infection count as much as possible. Stay safe out there, share aerosols unprotected at your own peril. [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(24)00013-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5... "Long COVID is associated with severe cognitive slowing: a multicentre cross-sectional study"