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> By every available poll, the Palestinians want to kill them all. I think that's a big stretch. Many/most Palestinians want "their" land back, and many/most m

by edanm 3y ago

> By every available poll, the Palestinians want to kill them all. I think that's a big stretch. Many/most Palestinians want "their" land back, and many/most might want Israel gone. But that is not at all the same as saying they want all Israelis killed. Some might want a one-state solution that gives them rights without necessarily infringing on Jews's rights, some might think that most Jews will have a place to go if they get their land back (with the settler-colonialism framing), etc. There are many valid things people can think that aren't "we want to kill all Jews". (I'm purposefully writing Jews and not Israelis, because I assume we both agree that most would explicitly not want to kill the 2 million or so Israeli-Palestinians!)

creato 3y ago
They might not want to kill them, but the track record of Arab countries in the middle east regarding Jewish population is not good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#Table_of_the_Jewish_population_in_Muslim_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_... Do you really expect a hypothetical Palestine to be any different?
- edanm 3y ago
  > Do you really expect a hypothetical Palestine to be any different? Depends on a lot of factors. I think there is definitely a path by which a peaceful neighborly Palestine can be created, though it will likely take a long time. And btw, many of these Arab neighbors now have peace with Israel, that has held for a long time. Including this week helping defend Israel against Iranian missiles. Not something anyone would've thought possible in the past, now it's reality. A reality that Israel would do well to internalize, instead of thinking of itself as a lone state surrounded by enemies.
  - SpaceGlow 3y ago
    There is a path to coexistence, but it needs to overcome a lot of malevolence present on the side of Arab nationalism and political Islam. Currently, violent extremists are setting the tone when it comes to public opinion, and the governements are somewhere in the middle between turning a blind eye and qctively promoting the hate. The right-wing hardliners in Israel also promote a similar dynamic, they are strongly opposed by the state establishment and most of the public, but it seems like the extremists on both sides make each other stronger while dragging the two nations to hell. Yet, the kind of black and white thinking the villifies Israel and naively promote appeasement and pacifism with genocidial terrorists could only lead to a hugh storm of violence and suffering, that may or may not end with the destruction of Israel in the most violent way possible. Egypt had 66,000 Jews before 1948. A peace agreement was reached in 1979. Yet almost none came back to live in Egypt. Jews and Israelis were very afraid to live in Egypt after the peace. Only in recent years A-Sisi started to do some work to replenish synagogoues and care for the country's very long Jewish legacy, probably as part of his policy against extremism. A Two-State solution could work in some constellation. a one state solution I see as leading to massacre and banishment of most of the Jews in the land.
    - jedimind 3y ago
      > "There is a path to coexistence, but it needs to overcome a lot of malevolence present on the side of Arab nationalism and political Islam." I doubt that you can provide evidence for your biased statements with full context of the history of Zionism and its crimes against the natives of the region. "Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth." - David Wasserstein https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-how-islam-saved-jews https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-...
- jedimind 3y ago
  That "track record" was a direct response to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by the Zionist colonizers. If one studies history in detail and nuance I'd say the Arabs have a much better track record than anyone else esp. Europe. "Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth." - David Wasserstein https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-how-islam-saved-jews https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-...
HDThoreaun 3y ago
The Hamas charter says kill all jews. They got so much pushback about that that they amended it, now it says kill all zionists. Killing Israelis is not a controversial take among palestinians.
- Thiez 3y ago
  It shouldn't be controversial to hate and want to destroy the people who have been oppressing and murdering you and your people for decades. It's understandable. It's absurd that the oppressor can then turn around and say "Our victims hate us! We have to keep oppressing and murdering for our own security!" and that anyone would take this argument seriously. In practice we've seen that the oppressed usually don't go on a massive revenge killing spree. Take for example the end of slavery in the US, or the end of apartheid in South Africa. Were all the white people murdered in revenge? No, even though many probably deserved it. I'm sure most Palestinians would be open for having a single country with equal rights and no apartheid from the river to the sea shared with the Israelis. Israel will never accept this because they want to maintain their apartheid and white supremacy.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    Simplistic oppressor vs opressed narratives are simplistic. Yes, the palestinians have been oppressed for almost a century at this point. No, I dont blame them for fighting back. I dont blame the Israelis for defending their home either though. The reality is that both sides have committed grave atrocities here and any narrative that tries to place the blame squarely on one side is glossing over a huge amount of historical context. The Israelis have every reason to continue to be worried about palestinian terrorism. A one state solution would involve them losing control of the government. Maybe the palestinians that would make up the majority would be nice to the Israelis, but I really really doubt that based on the way theyve treated the israelis over the past century. They certainly would attempt to institute sharia law which is probably enough of a reason for Israelis to reject a one state solution.
NeverFade 3y ago
Hamas is the favorite to win an election in Palestinian state: > If elections were held today, Fatah would lose to Hamas 17 to 34 percent. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-p... They are also the party that won the last (and only) election held by Palestinians, as well as the current rulers of Gaza. Their explicit goal is to kill every Jew in Israel, and they have acted it out in the genocidal 10/7 massacre. So not only do Palestinians support a party that promotes the genocide of all Jews in Israel - by all available evidence, this party is currently the favorite to control a Palestinian state. Not to mention there's pretty solid ground to believe that if Fatah (Hamas's only viable rival) controlled a Palestinian state, they'd also support the genocide of Jews. Just look at the education they provide to West Bank children, describing Jews as subhuman monsters that must be eradicated.
- Thiez 3y ago
  It's absurd to be accusing Hamas of genocide while Israel is committing an actual genocide on the Palestinians as we speak, and has a long history of apartheid and ethnic cleansing as well. Maybe we can worry about the hypothetical genocide that Hamas might want to commit but can't due to the massive difference in military power after the genocide that is currently being committed by Israel is stopped?

by edanm 3y ago

creato 3y ago

They might not want to kill them, but the track record of Arab countries in the middle east regarding Jewish population is not good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#Table_of_the_Jewish_population_in_Muslim_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_... Do you really expect a hypothetical Palestine to be any different?

edanm 3y ago
> Do you really expect a hypothetical Palestine to be any different? Depends on a lot of factors. I think there is definitely a path by which a peaceful neighborly Palestine can be created, though it will likely take a long time. And btw, many of these Arab neighbors now have peace with Israel, that has held for a long time. Including this week helping defend Israel against Iranian missiles. Not something anyone would've thought possible in the past, now it's reality. A reality that Israel would do well to internalize, instead of thinking of itself as a lone state surrounded by enemies.
- SpaceGlow 3y ago
  There is a path to coexistence, but it needs to overcome a lot of malevolence present on the side of Arab nationalism and political Islam. Currently, violent extremists are setting the tone when it comes to public opinion, and the governements are somewhere in the middle between turning a blind eye and qctively promoting the hate. The right-wing hardliners in Israel also promote a similar dynamic, they are strongly opposed by the state establishment and most of the public, but it seems like the extremists on both sides make each other stronger while dragging the two nations to hell. Yet, the kind of black and white thinking the villifies Israel and naively promote appeasement and pacifism with genocidial terrorists could only lead to a hugh storm of violence and suffering, that may or may not end with the destruction of Israel in the most violent way possible. Egypt had 66,000 Jews before 1948. A peace agreement was reached in 1979. Yet almost none came back to live in Egypt. Jews and Israelis were very afraid to live in Egypt after the peace. Only in recent years A-Sisi started to do some work to replenish synagogoues and care for the country's very long Jewish legacy, probably as part of his policy against extremism. A Two-State solution could work in some constellation. a one state solution I see as leading to massacre and banishment of most of the Jews in the land.
  - jedimind 3y ago
    > "There is a path to coexistence, but it needs to overcome a lot of malevolence present on the side of Arab nationalism and political Islam." I doubt that you can provide evidence for your biased statements with full context of the history of Zionism and its crimes against the natives of the region. "Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth." - David Wasserstein https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-how-islam-saved-jews https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-...
jedimind 3y ago
That "track record" was a direct response to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by the Zionist colonizers. If one studies history in detail and nuance I'd say the Arabs have a much better track record than anyone else esp. Europe. "Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth." - David Wasserstein https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-how-islam-saved-jews https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-...

HDThoreaun 3y ago

The Hamas charter says kill all jews. They got so much pushback about that that they amended it, now it says kill all zionists. Killing Israelis is not a controversial take among palestinians.

Thiez 3y ago
It shouldn't be controversial to hate and want to destroy the people who have been oppressing and murdering you and your people for decades. It's understandable. It's absurd that the oppressor can then turn around and say "Our victims hate us! We have to keep oppressing and murdering for our own security!" and that anyone would take this argument seriously. In practice we've seen that the oppressed usually don't go on a massive revenge killing spree. Take for example the end of slavery in the US, or the end of apartheid in South Africa. Were all the white people murdered in revenge? No, even though many probably deserved it. I'm sure most Palestinians would be open for having a single country with equal rights and no apartheid from the river to the sea shared with the Israelis. Israel will never accept this because they want to maintain their apartheid and white supremacy.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  Simplistic oppressor vs opressed narratives are simplistic. Yes, the palestinians have been oppressed for almost a century at this point. No, I dont blame them for fighting back. I dont blame the Israelis for defending their home either though. The reality is that both sides have committed grave atrocities here and any narrative that tries to place the blame squarely on one side is glossing over a huge amount of historical context. The Israelis have every reason to continue to be worried about palestinian terrorism. A one state solution would involve them losing control of the government. Maybe the palestinians that would make up the majority would be nice to the Israelis, but I really really doubt that based on the way theyve treated the israelis over the past century. They certainly would attempt to institute sharia law which is probably enough of a reason for Israelis to reject a one state solution.

NeverFade 3y ago

Hamas is the favorite to win an election in Palestinian state: > If elections were held today, Fatah would lose to Hamas 17 to 34 percent. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-p... They are also the party that won the last (and only) election held by Palestinians, as well as the current rulers of Gaza. Their explicit goal is to kill every Jew in Israel, and they have acted it out in the genocidal 10/7 massacre. So not only do Palestinians support a party that promotes the genocide of all Jews in Israel - by all available evidence, this party is currently the favorite to control a Palestinian state. Not to mention there's pretty solid ground to believe that if Fatah (Hamas's only viable rival) controlled a Palestinian state, they'd also support the genocide of Jews. Just look at the education they provide to West Bank children, describing Jews as subhuman monsters that must be eradicated.

Thiez 3y ago
It's absurd to be accusing Hamas of genocide while Israel is committing an actual genocide on the Palestinians as we speak, and has a long history of apartheid and ethnic cleansing as well. Maybe we can worry about the hypothetical genocide that Hamas might want to commit but can't due to the massive difference in military power after the genocide that is currently being committed by Israel is stopped?