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My brothers daughter went to a private pool party that had a life guard and a 4 year old drowned. Apparently there were a lot of floaties in the pool and no one

My brothers daughter went to a private pool party that had a life guard and a 4 year old drowned. Apparently there were a lot of floaties in the pool and no one noticed him slip in. I was living in Miami at the time and it shook me immensely as I was a new dad, pools are everywhere, and the thought of losing my son who was 2yo was unbearable. I was at the apartment pool chatting with a friend who is a very advanced swimmer - the type that swims laps seemingly endlessly - and she asked “have you ever seen what would happen if he fell in the pool?”. I said no, and then she suggested I try it so that I would at least know. So I picked him up and with no warning tossed him in. He immediately froze under water, arms and legs outstretched in literally stunned silence. I counted to 5 and pulled him out and he was trembling with fear. At that point I realized that the time it takes for a kid to drown is one breath. That may be 3 seconds, may be 10 seconds. It’s considerably shorter than the time it takes to run to the restroom, answer a call, pick up the pizza at the front door etc. They won’t fight for their life and splash, they’ll simply freeze stiff and die in silence. I literally shared that story with every close friend I have with kids to warn them about how fast it can happen, now I’m happy to share it with you. I won’t bore you with another story concerning my brothers daughter who almost died while in swim class at the MIT pool but suffice it to say, if you haven’t taught your kids how to swim, I advise you not to trust them with anyone but yourself and your partner.

whattheduh 2y ago
>> So I picked him up and with no warning tossed him in Why in the hell would you do that? You just created fear of water for the rest of his life. <<Shaking my head>>
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  Sometimes information is valuable even when there is no ethical way to collect it. I hope there was a long discussion after the event, though. If you're worried about fear of water, rather than damaging the parent/child relationship, that's easily solved. Swimming lessons will do the trick.
  - lazyasciiart 2y ago
    Their kid isn’t unique. They don’t need to know how that kid reacts - it’s perfectly adequate to learn from the millions of times it has happened to other children. Does the parent need to try having his own kid run into the road as well, to find out what would happen?
    - vermilingua 2y ago
      Perhaps true, but I would feel much more confident in my ability to spot a drowning child if I'd seen it with my own eyes, and "child drowning videos" is a very risky google. Tossing a kid in with no warning probably isn't the way, but "learn from the millions of times it has happened to other children" is not as straightforward a process as you make it sound.
      - Sebb767 2y ago
        > and "child drowning videos" is a very risky google. A bit less risky than throwing your own kid into water (and publicly telling the story), no?
      - krisoft 2y ago
        I would recommend this site: http://spotthedrowningchild.com/ http://spotthedrowningchild.com/ and this article: https://slate.com/technology/2013/06/rescuing-drowning-children-how-to-know-when-someone-is-in-trouble-in-the-water.html https://slate.com/technology/2013/06/rescuing-drowning-child...
      - fdgjgbdfhgb 2y ago
        Sorry, you think it's better to drown your own child than to google it? You can just search "how to spot a drowning person" and you'll find loads of articles and videos
- ronnys_fife20 2y ago
  [flagged]
chaboud 2y ago
It’s a horrible fear. When my eight year old was an infant (four months old), a second cousin (semi distant family member) drowned in a pool at a family gathering. My son’s mom and I (both former lifeguards) put him in infant swim classes immediately. Teaching him the habit of turning to breathe and finding the edge of a pool, along with simple comfort in water, served as an immense comfort. Now I’m faced with his confidence in water that can surprise even the best swimmers (oceans, rivers), so there’s one more parental fear… of course. Every child should at least learn how to float, front crawl, and backstroke. There’s just too much water in our world to have it be a death sentence.
stereo 2y ago
That's the kind of trauma that stays with someone for their whole life, and not a very nice thing to do to your kid. I hope you can make sure that he sees water as something fun and not threatening as he grows up.
- jtriangle 2y ago
  Mercifully, you don't really start forming strong memories until you're about 3-4, and your brain is gloriously plastic until around 23, so, to say 'that's the kind of trauma that stays with someone for their whole life' isn't really the case. They might be a little timid around water, but, get them in swim classes in a year or so, and they'll be zooming around in no time without a care in the world.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - lazyasciiart 2y ago
    Unfortunately not true. Babies who experience trauma may never be able to tell you about it, but they will remember it the same way they remember that their parents are safe people: it shows up in their emotions, their nervous system, their reactions to stimuli that seem innocuous. In other words “there appears to be a reorganization of cognitive and memory functions such that narrative memory for events prior to age three or four are difficult to access later in life. These two points have led to the pervasive, inaccurate and destructive view that infants do not recall traumatic experience…” https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_interest/child_law/resources/child_law_practiceonline/child_law_practice/vol-33/february-2014/special-considerations-for-traumatized-infants/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_interest/child_law...
    - navane 2y ago
      pretty sure that getting born trumps any trauma you can give a 2 yr old.
      - 2y ago
zo1 2y ago
I once took my son to a fun Waterpark for his 4th birthday. Eventually we went on a very tame slide that had a "splash pool" at the bottom. It felt safe enough to let him go, so I did, watching as he slid down. After a few seconds I went too, after losing sight of him for just a few seconds. When I got to the bottom of the slide, he was under the water with top of his head a few cms below the top. He stood there motionless, just looking up at me. I'll never forget that look of helplessness. I picked him up and he was fine luckily. He loves water and swimming now, no trauma or anything. Don't think the danger registered with him enough, but it did with us as parents. He went straight to swimming classes a few weeks after that.
Dr_Birdbrain 2y ago
When I was a little kid, my toddler sister fell into a pool I was in, and this was her exact reaction, she just froze up. A lot of family was nearby and one of my uncles scooped her out, but the freezing up is such a surprising response, and apparently not uncommon.
zufallsheld 2y ago
I had almost the same experience with my four year old this weekend. We were in the public swimming pool and she wanted to put away her swimming ring. So I took the ring and moved it away 3 meters. I come back and she immediately jumps into the water where she could not stand. She was under the water for marely a second but I saw the panic in her eyes and I also saw that she didn't move in the water. So I quickly went in and got her out. Luckily we stayed in the water for an hour more after this, so she's probably not afraid of the water. But she wouldn't take off her swimming ring anymore this day.
yread 2y ago
I hope you made sure he learnt that water is awesome and fun after such an experiment that no IRB or METC would ever approve. We sent our 6 month olds for water survival training. Apparently, they can easily learn to relax in the water, turn on their back and swim to the side in like 3 months. At the end of the course they try it by doing what you did
YZF 2y ago
Had an incident with my daughter where we took our eyes of her for a second and she fell in the water she was playing in. This was a small pool with just us there. We jumped and got her out but it was very scary. She did baby swim lessons so she knew to hold her breath but all it takes is a little longer without noticing. All it takes is not to pay attention... And this was before phones where everywhere. Be very careful. I think Freakonomics discussed how more children are killed by pools then by guns and how important it is to have fences around pools. My wife and me have different versions of who noticed first which is also interesting, scary moments mess you up.
- giantg2 2y ago
  Supposedly babies have a reaction that causes them to hold their breath automatically. I believe it's the same response that makes them freeze up. The lessons are more about reinforcing the breath holding part while teaching them to not freeze up the rest of their body so they can swim.
lynx23 2y ago
You deliberately threw your son into the water to see what happens because a random woman told you so? Schocking. Did you ever consider how that experiment would feel to your kid?
- Faaak 2y ago
  Relax, this was commonly done in baby swimming lessons in Switzerland. Not that big of a deal
  - lynx23 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - serial_dev 2y ago
      FGM is totally the same as letting your child in the water for three seconds.
      - lynx23 2y ago
        Its not the same, and I never claimed it is. However, in both cases, parents seem to think its not a big deal, and its "commonly done" in a whole country, whatever that is worth. Which is my point. Just because something is a common practice in some country, doesn't make it healthy or good.
      - twixfel 2y ago
        Actually if FGM is torture and intentionally drowning your child just to see what it looks like is surely also torture then I’d argue they really aren’t so different, no, although one may be worse than the other.
  - mns 2y ago
    They did this to me while I was 6 or 7 and my parents sent me to swimming lessons. Instructor threw me in an olympic sized poll while I had no clue on how to swim. Took me 30 years and a private instructor to get back and actually learn to swim. Great times. :)
moltar 2y ago
This was a huge worry for us too especially because we live near the ocean and many swimming pools. We did Infant Swimming Resource [1] program for our son and I can tell you it’s tremendous! He was able to swim as a 2.5yo. He can float fully clothed. This is the main thing they teach infants by the way. Just to stay afloat until they get help. It’s a special technique and they drill that until the infant learns. Swimming comes next if there’s a good grasp of the float technique. Highly recommended! Watch this demo [2]. [1] https://www.infantswim.com/ https://www.infantswim.com/ [2] https://youtu.be/rKvpPeha2sw?si=Oup3tYz83VNfq_Uc https://youtu.be/rKvpPeha2sw?si=Oup3tYz83VNfq_Uc
refurb 2y ago
This is why my kid started swim classes (water survival) at 2. They can learn to swim the length of a pool, float on their back at that age.
Unfrozen0688 2y ago
[dead]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Separo 2y ago
Well done on instilling in your son the deep-seated lesson that you are not trustworthy.
- Thiez 2y ago
  Most child abuse is committed by family and friends. Perhaps a little skepticism is healthy, rather than teaching them to have unwavering trust in authority figures. Besides, you're bound to screw up a few times anyway (e.g. walking into them when they're suddenly standing where you don't expect, bumping a head when picking them up, …). Kids are fairly forgiving.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    "rather than teaching them to have unwavering trust in authority figures." The system would like to have a word with you.
  - framapotari 2y ago
    > Most child abuse is committed by family and friends Yes, a father in this case.
  - twixfel 2y ago
    Rather than being a father who is not abusing his child, better to abuse the child to teach a valuable lesson that family cannot be trusted? Great lesson. How about being a father who can be trusted?
- mycologos 2y ago
  The instinct to shame people into being nicer to kids is in a way noble, but the confidence and vehemence of this comment is misplaced.
  - twixfel 2y ago
    It’s not misplaced. Putting your kid in danger without their consent just to “see what it looks like” is completely insane and a huge betrayal.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
speedgoose 2y ago
> I said no, and then she suggested I try it so that I would at least know. So I picked him up and with no warning tossed him in. record_scratch.mp3
giantg2 2y ago
Nobody with small children should be relying on lifeguards. If they're not old enough to swim and make good decisions, they need specialized attention. It's absolutely mindblowing to me how many parents I see at the pool strap some swimmies on their young child and just let them go while they're engrossed in their phone. As at least one other poster has mentioned, let them fall in the pool while supervised and pull them out within a few seconds. Usually they gain a healthy fear of the water from that. Then take them in with you afterwards so they can see it's fun when it's with you. Also, starting swim lessons shortly after they can walk or run is a good idea.
NicoJuicy 2y ago
That's not completely true, but perhaps this could be interesting to watch: http://spotthedrowningchild.com/ http://spotthedrowningchild.com/
bamboozled 2y ago
At that point I realized that the time it takes for a kid to drown is one breath I don’t think this is quite true? You can’t breathe under water, maybe inhaling some water would spur your child into action and at least try get back to the surface. I think you just scared your kid. My child is an infant and I slowly introduce him to putting his face under the water and now his whole body, seems to have mastered breathe holding pretty well. He comes up giggling even though there was a few times he inhaled some water. Recently he jumped into the pool unexpectedly, I don’t know why he did it, but I was watching him, he just chilled and wait till I fished him out. Came out smiling. Exposure is important.
ronnys_fife20 2y ago
[flagged]
fatnoah 2y ago
This is why my wife and I started our son in swimming lessons somewhere around 1 year old. Yes, it was fun, but it's an important life and survival skill. Being a strong swimmer doesn't mean you're invincible, but being comfortable in the water helps in so many of the situations where one might freeze, panic, or otheriwse waste energy. Comfort allows a second or two of rational thought to assess the situation and plan for an exit.
daynthelife 2y ago
One of many things I learned from [0] is that the vast majority drownings happen in crowded pools with a ton of floaties. It’s so easy to miss a kid falling in. Those floats are supposed to keep kids safe, but they’re a lot closer to being death traps. [0] http://spotthedrowningchild.com/ http://spotthedrowningchild.com/
spacechild1 2y ago
> So I picked him up and with no warning tossed him in. He immediately froze under water, arms and legs outstretched in literally stunned silence. I counted to 5 and pulled him out and he was trembling with fear. WTF, why would you do that?

whattheduh 2y ago

>> So I picked him up and with no warning tossed him in Why in the hell would you do that? You just created fear of water for the rest of his life. <<Shaking my head>>

thaumasiotes 2y ago
Sometimes information is valuable even when there is no ethical way to collect it. I hope there was a long discussion after the event, though. If you're worried about fear of water, rather than damaging the parent/child relationship, that's easily solved. Swimming lessons will do the trick.
- lazyasciiart 2y ago
  Their kid isn’t unique. They don’t need to know how that kid reacts - it’s perfectly adequate to learn from the millions of times it has happened to other children. Does the parent need to try having his own kid run into the road as well, to find out what would happen?
  - vermilingua 2y ago
    Perhaps true, but I would feel much more confident in my ability to spot a drowning child if I'd seen it with my own eyes, and "child drowning videos" is a very risky google. Tossing a kid in with no warning probably isn't the way, but "learn from the millions of times it has happened to other children" is not as straightforward a process as you make it sound.
    - Sebb767 2y ago
      > and "child drowning videos" is a very risky google. A bit less risky than throwing your own kid into water (and publicly telling the story), no?
    - krisoft 2y ago
      I would recommend this site: http://spotthedrowningchild.com/ http://spotthedrowningchild.com/ and this article: https://slate.com/technology/2013/06/rescuing-drowning-children-how-to-know-when-someone-is-in-trouble-in-the-water.html https://slate.com/technology/2013/06/rescuing-drowning-child...
    - fdgjgbdfhgb 2y ago
      Sorry, you think it's better to drown your own child than to google it? You can just search "how to spot a drowning person" and you'll find loads of articles and videos
ronnys_fife20 2y ago
[flagged]

chaboud 2y ago

It’s a horrible fear. When my eight year old was an infant (four months old), a second cousin (semi distant family member) drowned in a pool at a family gathering. My son’s mom and I (both former lifeguards) put him in infant swim classes immediately. Teaching him the habit of turning to breathe and finding the edge of a pool, along with simple comfort in water, served as an immense comfort. Now I’m faced with his confidence in water that can surprise even the best swimmers (oceans, rivers), so there’s one more parental fear… of course. Every child should at least learn how to float, front crawl, and backstroke. There’s just too much water in our world to have it be a death sentence.

stereo 2y ago

That's the kind of trauma that stays with someone for their whole life, and not a very nice thing to do to your kid. I hope you can make sure that he sees water as something fun and not threatening as he grows up.

jtriangle 2y ago
Mercifully, you don't really start forming strong memories until you're about 3-4, and your brain is gloriously plastic until around 23, so, to say 'that's the kind of trauma that stays with someone for their whole life' isn't really the case. They might be a little timid around water, but, get them in swim classes in a year or so, and they'll be zooming around in no time without a care in the world.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- lazyasciiart 2y ago
  Unfortunately not true. Babies who experience trauma may never be able to tell you about it, but they will remember it the same way they remember that their parents are safe people: it shows up in their emotions, their nervous system, their reactions to stimuli that seem innocuous. In other words “there appears to be a reorganization of cognitive and memory functions such that narrative memory for events prior to age three or four are difficult to access later in life. These two points have led to the pervasive, inaccurate and destructive view that infants do not recall traumatic experience…” https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_interest/child_law/resources/child_law_practiceonline/child_law_practice/vol-33/february-2014/special-considerations-for-traumatized-infants/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_interest/child_law...
  - navane 2y ago
    pretty sure that getting born trumps any trauma you can give a 2 yr old.
    - 2y ago

zo1 2y ago

I once took my son to a fun Waterpark for his 4th birthday. Eventually we went on a very tame slide that had a "splash pool" at the bottom. It felt safe enough to let him go, so I did, watching as he slid down. After a few seconds I went too, after losing sight of him for just a few seconds. When I got to the bottom of the slide, he was under the water with top of his head a few cms below the top. He stood there motionless, just looking up at me. I'll never forget that look of helplessness. I picked him up and he was fine luckily. He loves water and swimming now, no trauma or anything. Don't think the danger registered with him enough, but it did with us as parents. He went straight to swimming classes a few weeks after that.

Dr_Birdbrain 2y ago

When I was a little kid, my toddler sister fell into a pool I was in, and this was her exact reaction, she just froze up. A lot of family was nearby and one of my uncles scooped her out, but the freezing up is such a surprising response, and apparently not uncommon.

zufallsheld 2y ago

I had almost the same experience with my four year old this weekend. We were in the public swimming pool and she wanted to put away her swimming ring. So I took the ring and moved it away 3 meters. I come back and she immediately jumps into the water where she could not stand. She was under the water for marely a second but I saw the panic in her eyes and I also saw that she didn't move in the water. So I quickly went in and got her out. Luckily we stayed in the water for an hour more after this, so she's probably not afraid of the water. But she wouldn't take off her swimming ring anymore this day.

yread 2y ago

I hope you made sure he learnt that water is awesome and fun after such an experiment that no IRB or METC would ever approve. We sent our 6 month olds for water survival training. Apparently, they can easily learn to relax in the water, turn on their back and swim to the side in like 3 months. At the end of the course they try it by doing what you did

YZF 2y ago

Had an incident with my daughter where we took our eyes of her for a second and she fell in the water she was playing in. This was a small pool with just us there. We jumped and got her out but it was very scary. She did baby swim lessons so she knew to hold her breath but all it takes is a little longer without noticing. All it takes is not to pay attention... And this was before phones where everywhere. Be very careful. I think Freakonomics discussed how more children are killed by pools then by guns and how important it is to have fences around pools. My wife and me have different versions of who noticed first which is also interesting, scary moments mess you up.

giantg2 2y ago
Supposedly babies have a reaction that causes them to hold their breath automatically. I believe it's the same response that makes them freeze up. The lessons are more about reinforcing the breath holding part while teaching them to not freeze up the rest of their body so they can swim.

lynx23 2y ago

You deliberately threw your son into the water to see what happens because a random woman told you so? Schocking. Did you ever consider how that experiment would feel to your kid?

Faaak 2y ago
Relax, this was commonly done in baby swimming lessons in Switzerland. Not that big of a deal
- lynx23 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - serial_dev 2y ago
    FGM is totally the same as letting your child in the water for three seconds.
    - lynx23 2y ago
      Its not the same, and I never claimed it is. However, in both cases, parents seem to think its not a big deal, and its "commonly done" in a whole country, whatever that is worth. Which is my point. Just because something is a common practice in some country, doesn't make it healthy or good.
    - twixfel 2y ago
      Actually if FGM is torture and intentionally drowning your child just to see what it looks like is surely also torture then I’d argue they really aren’t so different, no, although one may be worse than the other.
- mns 2y ago
  They did this to me while I was 6 or 7 and my parents sent me to swimming lessons. Instructor threw me in an olympic sized poll while I had no clue on how to swim. Took me 30 years and a private instructor to get back and actually learn to swim. Great times. :)

moltar 2y ago

This was a huge worry for us too especially because we live near the ocean and many swimming pools. We did Infant Swimming Resource [1] program for our son and I can tell you it’s tremendous! He was able to swim as a 2.5yo. He can float fully clothed. This is the main thing they teach infants by the way. Just to stay afloat until they get help. It’s a special technique and they drill that until the infant learns. Swimming comes next if there’s a good grasp of the float technique. Highly recommended! Watch this demo [2]. [1] https://www.infantswim.com/ https://www.infantswim.com/ [2] https://youtu.be/rKvpPeha2sw?si=Oup3tYz83VNfq_Uc https://youtu.be/rKvpPeha2sw?si=Oup3tYz83VNfq_Uc

refurb 2y ago

This is why my kid started swim classes (water survival) at 2. They can learn to swim the length of a pool, float on their back at that age.

Unfrozen0688 2y ago

[dead]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Separo 2y ago

Well done on instilling in your son the deep-seated lesson that you are not trustworthy.

Thiez 2y ago
Most child abuse is committed by family and friends. Perhaps a little skepticism is healthy, rather than teaching them to have unwavering trust in authority figures. Besides, you're bound to screw up a few times anyway (e.g. walking into them when they're suddenly standing where you don't expect, bumping a head when picking them up, …). Kids are fairly forgiving.
- giantg2 2y ago
  "rather than teaching them to have unwavering trust in authority figures." The system would like to have a word with you.
- framapotari 2y ago
  > Most child abuse is committed by family and friends Yes, a father in this case.
- twixfel 2y ago
  Rather than being a father who is not abusing his child, better to abuse the child to teach a valuable lesson that family cannot be trusted? Great lesson. How about being a father who can be trusted?
mycologos 2y ago
The instinct to shame people into being nicer to kids is in a way noble, but the confidence and vehemence of this comment is misplaced.
- twixfel 2y ago
  It’s not misplaced. Putting your kid in danger without their consent just to “see what it looks like” is completely insane and a huge betrayal.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

speedgoose 2y ago

> I said no, and then she suggested I try it so that I would at least know. So I picked him up and with no warning tossed him in. record_scratch.mp3

giantg2 2y ago

Nobody with small children should be relying on lifeguards. If they're not old enough to swim and make good decisions, they need specialized attention. It's absolutely mindblowing to me how many parents I see at the pool strap some swimmies on their young child and just let them go while they're engrossed in their phone. As at least one other poster has mentioned, let them fall in the pool while supervised and pull them out within a few seconds. Usually they gain a healthy fear of the water from that. Then take them in with you afterwards so they can see it's fun when it's with you. Also, starting swim lessons shortly after they can walk or run is a good idea.

NicoJuicy 2y ago

That's not completely true, but perhaps this could be interesting to watch: http://spotthedrowningchild.com/ http://spotthedrowningchild.com/

bamboozled 2y ago

At that point I realized that the time it takes for a kid to drown is one breath I don’t think this is quite true? You can’t breathe under water, maybe inhaling some water would spur your child into action and at least try get back to the surface. I think you just scared your kid. My child is an infant and I slowly introduce him to putting his face under the water and now his whole body, seems to have mastered breathe holding pretty well. He comes up giggling even though there was a few times he inhaled some water. Recently he jumped into the pool unexpectedly, I don’t know why he did it, but I was watching him, he just chilled and wait till I fished him out. Came out smiling. Exposure is important.

ronnys_fife20 2y ago

[flagged]

fatnoah 2y ago

This is why my wife and I started our son in swimming lessons somewhere around 1 year old. Yes, it was fun, but it's an important life and survival skill. Being a strong swimmer doesn't mean you're invincible, but being comfortable in the water helps in so many of the situations where one might freeze, panic, or otheriwse waste energy. Comfort allows a second or two of rational thought to assess the situation and plan for an exit.

daynthelife 2y ago

One of many things I learned from [0] is that the vast majority drownings happen in crowded pools with a ton of floaties. It’s so easy to miss a kid falling in. Those floats are supposed to keep kids safe, but they’re a lot closer to being death traps. [0] http://spotthedrowningchild.com/ http://spotthedrowningchild.com/

spacechild1 2y ago

> So I picked him up and with no warning tossed him in. He immediately froze under water, arms and legs outstretched in literally stunned silence. I counted to 5 and pulled him out and he was trembling with fear. WTF, why would you do that?