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100%. Ask any one of these people to quantify how their view on reality changed and it'll be vague transcendentalist talking points and hand waving around thing

100%. Ask any one of these people to quantify how their view on reality changed and it'll be vague transcendentalist talking points and hand waving around things like something something spiritualism, something something deeper connection with nature, something something cosmic holographic kaleidoscopic reality. On par with new age crystal healing and chakra points.

shric 3y ago
I'm an extreme materialist, I don't believe in gods or spirits or anything of the sort. I don't even believe in the magic some people call "free will". I first tried LSD about 10 years ago and have taken various forms of psychedelics once or twice a year since. Some of them were, without a doubt, the most profound experiences of my life. You're right about the vague transcendentalist nonsense. The problem is there are no words to describe it adequately. Despite only having pleasant experiences myself, I would never encourage any friend or stranger to try them. That is something only they can decide with their own research and risk appetite. There are absolutely serious potential consequences. I think the worst consequence for me is that I have started to like weird music like psytrance even when sober.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  As a materialist, do you believe in laws of physics?
  - shric 3y ago
    I believe they're our current best approximation to how the universe behaves based on our empirical observations.
    - mensetmanusman 3y ago
      But that the universe behaves according to some laws?
      - shric 3y ago
        I don't know. The universe does not know or care about our laws and they are incomplete. For example, we have no idea how consciousness works, so at this point we stop at "I don't know", rather than inventing explanations. I don't know if consciousness is computable -- I suspect it isn't. If it is not computable then we cannot come up with laws to explain it. Or maybe the whole universe is computable but its kolmogorov complexity is larger than its information capacity.
        mensetmanusman 3y ago
        I believe we know, based on any definition of knowing - I.e. assuming we can know anything at all, and realizing that any definitions of knowing are all circular to an extent, that the electron follows some laws. I agree that the universe doesn't care how we approximate these laws, but only that they clearly exist. If these laws exist, they are certainly not material, unless you redefine material, and that is why I am no longer a materialist :)
        shric 3y ago
        You're technically correct (the best kind of correct)! However, I don't think any materialist would deny laws of physics exist. We might say that how materials interact with each other is an intrinsic property of material itself, just as an electron behaves as though it has a certain mass. What definition of material would you use that separates it from its laws?
mathgladiator 3y ago
How does one quantify a conversation with a transdimensional being?
Centigonal 3y ago
There are plenty of people who talk about how psychedelics helped them integrate and move past traumatic experiences, kick addictions, and come to terms with difficult truths like the mortality of themselves or their loved ones. The transcendental and indescribable is part of the experience for sure, but there's plenty of evidence for psychedelic experiences creating concrete, durable, quantifiable changes in worldview and behavior. MAPS (https://maps.org https://maps.org) has done fantastic work to compile literature reviews for the scientific studies that demonstrate these outcomes. I'm not saying that psychedelics are for everyone, or that anyone should take them on a whim and without preparation. However, it's just incorrect to equate their ability to change people's lives for the better to crystal healing or similar.
lewispollard 3y ago
Just because a subjective experience is ineffable and difficult to describe adequately doesn't mean it's nonsense. It's convenient to lump those things all together, but it's not accurate. After all, asking someone what it was like to stand at the top of a mountain they'd just climbed, admiring the view, you're likely to get similar "hand-waving" answers about connection to something bigger than them, but you probably wouldn't argue that climbing a mountain and taking in the view is a worthless experience that amounts to nonsense.

shric 3y ago

I'm an extreme materialist, I don't believe in gods or spirits or anything of the sort. I don't even believe in the magic some people call "free will". I first tried LSD about 10 years ago and have taken various forms of psychedelics once or twice a year since. Some of them were, without a doubt, the most profound experiences of my life. You're right about the vague transcendentalist nonsense. The problem is there are no words to describe it adequately. Despite only having pleasant experiences myself, I would never encourage any friend or stranger to try them. That is something only they can decide with their own research and risk appetite. There are absolutely serious potential consequences. I think the worst consequence for me is that I have started to like weird music like psytrance even when sober.

mensetmanusman 3y ago
As a materialist, do you believe in laws of physics?
- shric 3y ago
  I believe they're our current best approximation to how the universe behaves based on our empirical observations.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    But that the universe behaves according to some laws?
    - shric 3y ago
      I don't know. The universe does not know or care about our laws and they are incomplete. For example, we have no idea how consciousness works, so at this point we stop at "I don't know", rather than inventing explanations. I don't know if consciousness is computable -- I suspect it isn't. If it is not computable then we cannot come up with laws to explain it. Or maybe the whole universe is computable but its kolmogorov complexity is larger than its information capacity.
      - mensetmanusman 3y ago
        I believe we know, based on any definition of knowing - I.e. assuming we can know anything at all, and realizing that any definitions of knowing are all circular to an extent, that the electron follows some laws. I agree that the universe doesn't care how we approximate these laws, but only that they clearly exist. If these laws exist, they are certainly not material, unless you redefine material, and that is why I am no longer a materialist :)
        shric 3y ago
        You're technically correct (the best kind of correct)! However, I don't think any materialist would deny laws of physics exist. We might say that how materials interact with each other is an intrinsic property of material itself, just as an electron behaves as though it has a certain mass. What definition of material would you use that separates it from its laws?

mathgladiator 3y ago

How does one quantify a conversation with a transdimensional being?

Centigonal 3y ago

There are plenty of people who talk about how psychedelics helped them integrate and move past traumatic experiences, kick addictions, and come to terms with difficult truths like the mortality of themselves or their loved ones. The transcendental and indescribable is part of the experience for sure, but there's plenty of evidence for psychedelic experiences creating concrete, durable, quantifiable changes in worldview and behavior. MAPS (https://maps.org https://maps.org) has done fantastic work to compile literature reviews for the scientific studies that demonstrate these outcomes. I'm not saying that psychedelics are for everyone, or that anyone should take them on a whim and without preparation. However, it's just incorrect to equate their ability to change people's lives for the better to crystal healing or similar.

lewispollard 3y ago

Just because a subjective experience is ineffable and difficult to describe adequately doesn't mean it's nonsense. It's convenient to lump those things all together, but it's not accurate. After all, asking someone what it was like to stand at the top of a mountain they'd just climbed, admiring the view, you're likely to get similar "hand-waving" answers about connection to something bigger than them, but you probably wouldn't argue that climbing a mountain and taking in the view is a worthless experience that amounts to nonsense.