3 ms·

> Almost none of a person's daily life is dominated by racial issues I can't say race "dominates" my daily life -- but as a matter of politics it probably rank

> Almost none of a person's daily life is dominated by racial issues I can't say race "dominates" my daily life -- but as a matter of politics it probably ranks #2 after issues directly related to income (mostly taxes). And I can confidently say that almost all of the negative in-person interactions I've had in my life have almost exclusively been because of race. Why do you think racial politics works so well? Why do Black women align more strongly with racial causes than gender causes? Is it because gender issues aren't really important? Do you think that if there was less identity politics that things would actually be better for minorities? Or would it mostly be better for the majority?

nsagent 3y ago
There are frequently better lenses for examining these issues, like culture and socioeconomics. These explain a larger portion of the variance than race in many circumstances. For example, black immigrants from Africa have a very different outlook than American descendants of slavery [1], with black immigrants having higher educational attainment than any other demographic [2] in the US. A similar finding has been observed in the UK [3]. It's true that systemic racism has disadvantaged African Americans even after the Civil Rights movement, but interestingly the income gap is wider for black men than it is for black women [4] indicating there are more factors at play than racism alone since black women face similar amounts of discrimination as black men [5]. That said, I don't discount the impact that both implicit and explicit racism can have. I just think it's important to take a more holistic view rather than falling back on identity as the main causal factor. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/us/slavery-black-immigrants-ados.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/us/slavery-black-immigran... [2]: https://www.chicagotribune.com/2007/03/18/black-immigrants-collect-most-degrees/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/2007/03/18/black-immigrants-c... [3]: https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-10/the_achievement_of_black_african_children_in_england_2021.pdf https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-10/the_a... [4]: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-inheritance-of-black-poverty-its-all-about-the-men/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-inheritance-of-black-... [5]: https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2020/07/black-women-social-justice https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2020/07/black-women-...
naasking 3y ago
> I can't say race "dominates" my daily life -- but as a matter of politics it probably ranks #2 after issues directly related to income (mostly taxes). I'm sure it does for many, but the question is why does it rank that high? Is it because it materially affects your life, or because of other qualitative, personal reasons that don't have much material impact? You just said that material impact ranks higher than race (eg. income, taxes), so do you think race has a higher material impact on you than foreign policy, or education policy? > And I can confidently say that almost all of the negative in-person interactions I've had in my life have almost exclusively been because of race. I'm genuinely curious whether you think a white person in your place would not have had most of the same negative experiences, all else being equal. You said "almost all", so if we put that at 80%, do you really think white people in your same circumstances (education, socioeconomic status, etc.) have only 20% of the negative interactions you experience? Doesn't that seem a bit implausible? Isn't it also plausible that at least some of those people were already angry at you for other reasons, and then used racial insults because they knew it would anger you in return? Also a shitty thing to do, but it's meaningfully different to say that you had a negative interaction caused by your race, as opposed to a racist insult caused by a negative interaction. > Why do you think racial politics works so well? Because human beings are tribal and love defining in-groups for solidarity and blaming out-groups for their problems, justified or not. > Why do Black women align more strongly with racial causes than gender causes? Is it because gender issues aren't really important? Yes, most gender issues these days are relatively unimportant compared to historical norms, and shared culture defines in-groups more strongly than gender. > Do you think that if there was less identity politics that things would actually be better for minorities? Or would it mostly be better for the majority? I think this is a false dichotomy at the core of identity politics. The most significant objective group that materially impacts literally everyone is class, and identity politics is an excellent tool for destroying class unity. Power intentionally amplifies identity politics to play on people's tribal instincts for exactly this reason.
- kenjackson 3y ago
  > so do you think race has a higher material impact on you than foreign policy, or education policy? Probably so. At least more day-to-day. At the extremes I imagine foreign policy could be huge (if we go to war with China, for example), but even the war with Ukraine/Russia has had little impact on my day-to-day life (that I've noticed). > I'm genuinely curious whether you think a white person in your place would not have had most of the same negative experiences Probably not. And to be clear, these aren't small day to day interactions. But major negative interactions I've had in my life. From being put up for adoption because my birth-moms family didn't want her to have a black child (I have this directly from my birth grandmother), to being picked on as the only black kid in my class, to having my fiancée say that her family won't come to our wedding due to race (never got married, so won't know if they'd follow through or not -- but it put an extra strain on the relationship that didn't help). And these are selected examples where race was explicitly noted as the reason. There's also a bunch where race wasn't noted, but I have strong suspicions. And while this makes me cautious, it doesn't make me disengage because most day-to-day interactions with people are tend toward quite positive. > Because human beings are tribal and love defining in-groups for solidarity and blaming out-groups for their problems, justified or not. These tribes are social constructs, as it applies to identity politics. But you're ignoring the fact that real politics have been used against the out-groups. Whether it was slavery, internment camps, home loans, segregation, medical care, etc... Sure you can say, "their just constructed tribes", but when one tribe has used this construct to great advantage -- it won't go unnoticed. And I'm unclear if you're saying it should be ignored or that the advantage gained doesn't exist.

nsagent 3y ago

There are frequently better lenses for examining these issues, like culture and socioeconomics. These explain a larger portion of the variance than race in many circumstances. For example, black immigrants from Africa have a very different outlook than American descendants of slavery [1], with black immigrants having higher educational attainment than any other demographic [2] in the US. A similar finding has been observed in the UK [3]. It's true that systemic racism has disadvantaged African Americans even after the Civil Rights movement, but interestingly the income gap is wider for black men than it is for black women [4] indicating there are more factors at play than racism alone since black women face similar amounts of discrimination as black men [5]. That said, I don't discount the impact that both implicit and explicit racism can have. I just think it's important to take a more holistic view rather than falling back on identity as the main causal factor. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/us/slavery-black-immigrants-ados.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/us/slavery-black-immigran... [2]: https://www.chicagotribune.com/2007/03/18/black-immigrants-collect-most-degrees/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/2007/03/18/black-immigrants-c... [3]: https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-10/the_achievement_of_black_african_children_in_england_2021.pdf https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-10/the_a... [4]: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-inheritance-of-black-poverty-its-all-about-the-men/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-inheritance-of-black-... [5]: https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2020/07/black-women-social-justice https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2020/07/black-women-...

naasking 3y ago

> I can't say race "dominates" my daily life -- but as a matter of politics it probably ranks #2 after issues directly related to income (mostly taxes). I'm sure it does for many, but the question is why does it rank that high? Is it because it materially affects your life, or because of other qualitative, personal reasons that don't have much material impact? You just said that material impact ranks higher than race (eg. income, taxes), so do you think race has a higher material impact on you than foreign policy, or education policy? > And I can confidently say that almost all of the negative in-person interactions I've had in my life have almost exclusively been because of race. I'm genuinely curious whether you think a white person in your place would not have had most of the same negative experiences, all else being equal. You said "almost all", so if we put that at 80%, do you really think white people in your same circumstances (education, socioeconomic status, etc.) have only 20% of the negative interactions you experience? Doesn't that seem a bit implausible? Isn't it also plausible that at least some of those people were already angry at you for other reasons, and then used racial insults because they knew it would anger you in return? Also a shitty thing to do, but it's meaningfully different to say that you had a negative interaction caused by your race, as opposed to a racist insult caused by a negative interaction. > Why do you think racial politics works so well? Because human beings are tribal and love defining in-groups for solidarity and blaming out-groups for their problems, justified or not. > Why do Black women align more strongly with racial causes than gender causes? Is it because gender issues aren't really important? Yes, most gender issues these days are relatively unimportant compared to historical norms, and shared culture defines in-groups more strongly than gender. > Do you think that if there was less identity politics that things would actually be better for minorities? Or would it mostly be better for the majority? I think this is a false dichotomy at the core of identity politics. The most significant objective group that materially impacts literally everyone is class, and identity politics is an excellent tool for destroying class unity. Power intentionally amplifies identity politics to play on people's tribal instincts for exactly this reason.

kenjackson 3y ago
> so do you think race has a higher material impact on you than foreign policy, or education policy? Probably so. At least more day-to-day. At the extremes I imagine foreign policy could be huge (if we go to war with China, for example), but even the war with Ukraine/Russia has had little impact on my day-to-day life (that I've noticed). > I'm genuinely curious whether you think a white person in your place would not have had most of the same negative experiences Probably not. And to be clear, these aren't small day to day interactions. But major negative interactions I've had in my life. From being put up for adoption because my birth-moms family didn't want her to have a black child (I have this directly from my birth grandmother), to being picked on as the only black kid in my class, to having my fiancée say that her family won't come to our wedding due to race (never got married, so won't know if they'd follow through or not -- but it put an extra strain on the relationship that didn't help). And these are selected examples where race was explicitly noted as the reason. There's also a bunch where race wasn't noted, but I have strong suspicions. And while this makes me cautious, it doesn't make me disengage because most day-to-day interactions with people are tend toward quite positive. > Because human beings are tribal and love defining in-groups for solidarity and blaming out-groups for their problems, justified or not. These tribes are social constructs, as it applies to identity politics. But you're ignoring the fact that real politics have been used against the out-groups. Whether it was slavery, internment camps, home loans, segregation, medical care, etc... Sure you can say, "their just constructed tribes", but when one tribe has used this construct to great advantage -- it won't go unnoticed. And I'm unclear if you're saying it should be ignored or that the advantage gained doesn't exist.