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The outcome of this has been to make it harder to fail as a kid. We don't hold kids back anymore and we don't suspend kids anymore. At some point in time the r

The outcome of this has been to make it harder to fail as a kid. We don't hold kids back anymore and we don't suspend kids anymore. At some point in time the rubber meets the road and you will be held accountable and have to be. We could improve the social safety net but we never want to match other countries that have more supervision of their at risk population. When I worked temp jobs there wasn't a place I worked where if you showed up on time two days in a row and worked hard I wasn't offered a job. All of these places paid well over minimum wage you just had to be willing to do hard physical work. Society plays some role but I have zero trust that our institutions know how to help people.

ZhadruOmjar 2y ago
There are so many teachers explaining how and why kids don't fail anymore and that leads to issues from grade 1 to graduation. At some point people just need to _do the thing_.
batshit_beaver 2y ago
> The outcome of this has been to make it harder to fail as a kid. I'd like to go a little further and suggest that more recently there's been a trend of not holding the adults accountable either. Instead of trying to improve outcomes for all, we seem to have decided to choose the path of collective failure.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 2y ago
  When do the greater communities need to pay their dues? Schools cost money to run but taxpayers balk and cry over every cent increase. There are crumbling schools with toxic air and water that lack adequate HVAC paying their teachers unlivable salaries. This is the result of neglect to preserve and invest which is a condemnation of those who allowed such neglect on their watch when they should have championed such plights before they reached these new heights. Teachers can literally be miracle workers but that makes no difference if the communities their students return to undervalue education or lack the resources to foster healthy environments to grow and learn in. Broken communities create broken school districts. This goes back to the point I make in another comment on this page. We must invest in underperforming communities to bring them up to the average if we want to see improvements. This necessarily requires such difficult conversations like the poor Hispanic or black majority cities getting some of the education tax from rich white suburbs or something to the same effect.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    Schools in the US cost more than schools in any other developed nation. Every institution in the US has been taken over by careerists and credentialists who produce nothing of value and are a drain on the system. For a simple example in our area look at twitter: we were told the servers would catch fire, the end times will be upon us and cats will live with dogs. Instead the servers kept chugging along just as well as they did before with a 20th the staff. At this point everything is so bad I'd support sortition for every public managerial position. You can't do worse than what we have today.
    - tatrajim 2y ago
      As an anecdote on the topic of education, as a US Peace Corps Volunteer in rural South Korea in the 1970s, I routinely visited secondary schools that (at the time) were little more than drab warehouses for large (-70 students/class) using ragged textbooks and ancient furniture. Spirits were high, though, and these farm kids were successfully learning math through basic differential calculus plus a daunting array of other subjects. Thereafter, I have only felt (perhaps unfairly) mild contempt for the perennial whining of US critics who blame low funding for educational failing in the public schools. In my opinion the blame lies elsewhere, starting with the family.
      - galdosdi 2y ago
        A quote I once heard applies here. "All a preacher needs is 4 walls and the good book, and willing souls" For most of school, all you need is paper and pens and a place where to meet. A notebook costs a dollar. You can also do quite a bit of lab science prior to college at home, and music only adds the cost of the instrument. I have done tutoring in parks and coffee shops and in some of those sessions seen more learning than the most expensive classroom. It's about the kids and the teachers, not the campus. If you want a really really good school at a really low price, eliminate the building and all support functions other than hiring new teachers, and redirect all of the extra money to teachers salaries. Then just meet in libraries, parks, coffee shops, and the houses of parents and teachers. 99% of the outcome comes from the teachers (being competent) and the students (being motivated).
awwaiid 2y ago
I think ... right ok, I guess harder-to-fail but really it is easier-to-fail, easier to remain in a failure state, as a kid right? Same thing eh?
jandrese 2y ago
I went to primary school in the 80s and 90s and even back then it was pretty hard to be held back a grade level. Typically it only happened when a kid missed a lot of school, like they were hit by a car and spent 2 months in the hospital. Failing grades alone didn't usually cause it, at least the kids who seemed completely uninterested in school still somehow managed to graduate.
- lynx23 2y ago
  "Everybody is a unique snowflake" attitude is causing way more problems then we publically admit. Setting boundaries is important. As is seeing the consequences of your own actions. I was held back in school for a year. Looking back, this was one of the most important things in my school time. I am glad it happened.
  - I_o_IllI__o_I 2y ago
    >"Everybody is a unique snowflake" attitude is causing way more problems then we publically admit like what problems?
    - lynx23 2y ago
      Like, systematic lack of resilience.
chefandy 2y ago
> We don't hold kids back anymore and we don't suspend kids anymore. Does that contradict real data that shows holding kids back and suspending them makes them more successful?
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 2y ago
  Real data on holding kids back is actively harmful. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03055698.2014.936828 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03055698.2014.93... The same holds for suspensions. https://edsource.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Noltemeyer_Ward_2015_Meta-Analysis.pdf https://edsource.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Noltemeyer_W...
  - chefandy 2y ago
    As someone subjected to both of these actions, plus expulsion, in lieu of anybody bothering to try and figure out what was wrong, that certainly rings true. However, people just really really love a) nostalgia, b) validating their compulsion to inflict the same pain they experienced as children on young people, and c) watching people in out-groups get punished. It's a lovely thought, but I'll believe that there have been real changes, rather than overblown facets of moral panic about abandoning those bad habits, when I see them.
    - chefandy 2y ago
      Happy to address any counterarguments from the multiple downvoters.
    - sabarn01 2y ago
      If you have a kid that is fighting other kids/teachers what is the school supposed to do.
      - chefandy 2y ago
        A) Suspension is a great way to pretend you're addressing a problem while sweeping it under the rug. If the administrators aren't willing to mediate conflict among students, they should find another line of work. The school has a responsibility to educate their students. If they fail to do that for a student without finding alternate placement better equipped to handle whatever problem they face, they failed in their responsibility. B) If a student has a consistent enough problem with antisocial behavior that they require constant intervention, they should be in a non-mainstream classroom or school that can address that problem while still fulfilling their responsibility to educate them. C) There's a whole lot of punishment doled out in schools for non-violent conduct violations. Caught skipping class? Caught vaping in the parking lot? Dress code violation? Caught copying someone's test? Caught using a phone multiple times when you're not supposed to? You seem to be deliberately implying that questioning any suspension means you support violence in school, which is completely ridiculous. Everything in life can be turned into a black-and-white issue if you ignore enough details and context.
makeitdouble 2y ago
Answering: > I’m talking about stuff like navigating health insurance, paying taxes, budgeting, managing credit, home maintenance, vehicle care. With: > We don't hold kids back anymore and we don't suspend kids anymore is a truely weird logic to me. Is it related ? Or are you offering to let kids get credit lines and suspend them over their mismanagement ? That could actually be a great idea TBH. And while we're at it, adults could also get suspended or have to attend additional courses, instead of getting thrown into debt spirals.

ZhadruOmjar 2y ago

There are so many teachers explaining how and why kids don't fail anymore and that leads to issues from grade 1 to graduation. At some point people just need to _do the thing_.

batshit_beaver 2y ago

> The outcome of this has been to make it harder to fail as a kid. I'd like to go a little further and suggest that more recently there's been a trend of not holding the adults accountable either. Instead of trying to improve outcomes for all, we seem to have decided to choose the path of collective failure.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 2y ago
When do the greater communities need to pay their dues? Schools cost money to run but taxpayers balk and cry over every cent increase. There are crumbling schools with toxic air and water that lack adequate HVAC paying their teachers unlivable salaries. This is the result of neglect to preserve and invest which is a condemnation of those who allowed such neglect on their watch when they should have championed such plights before they reached these new heights. Teachers can literally be miracle workers but that makes no difference if the communities their students return to undervalue education or lack the resources to foster healthy environments to grow and learn in. Broken communities create broken school districts. This goes back to the point I make in another comment on this page. We must invest in underperforming communities to bring them up to the average if we want to see improvements. This necessarily requires such difficult conversations like the poor Hispanic or black majority cities getting some of the education tax from rich white suburbs or something to the same effect.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  Schools in the US cost more than schools in any other developed nation. Every institution in the US has been taken over by careerists and credentialists who produce nothing of value and are a drain on the system. For a simple example in our area look at twitter: we were told the servers would catch fire, the end times will be upon us and cats will live with dogs. Instead the servers kept chugging along just as well as they did before with a 20th the staff. At this point everything is so bad I'd support sortition for every public managerial position. You can't do worse than what we have today.
  - tatrajim 2y ago
    As an anecdote on the topic of education, as a US Peace Corps Volunteer in rural South Korea in the 1970s, I routinely visited secondary schools that (at the time) were little more than drab warehouses for large (-70 students/class) using ragged textbooks and ancient furniture. Spirits were high, though, and these farm kids were successfully learning math through basic differential calculus plus a daunting array of other subjects. Thereafter, I have only felt (perhaps unfairly) mild contempt for the perennial whining of US critics who blame low funding for educational failing in the public schools. In my opinion the blame lies elsewhere, starting with the family.
    - galdosdi 2y ago
      A quote I once heard applies here. "All a preacher needs is 4 walls and the good book, and willing souls" For most of school, all you need is paper and pens and a place where to meet. A notebook costs a dollar. You can also do quite a bit of lab science prior to college at home, and music only adds the cost of the instrument. I have done tutoring in parks and coffee shops and in some of those sessions seen more learning than the most expensive classroom. It's about the kids and the teachers, not the campus. If you want a really really good school at a really low price, eliminate the building and all support functions other than hiring new teachers, and redirect all of the extra money to teachers salaries. Then just meet in libraries, parks, coffee shops, and the houses of parents and teachers. 99% of the outcome comes from the teachers (being competent) and the students (being motivated).

awwaiid 2y ago

I think ... right ok, I guess harder-to-fail but really it is easier-to-fail, easier to remain in a failure state, as a kid right? Same thing eh?

jandrese 2y ago

I went to primary school in the 80s and 90s and even back then it was pretty hard to be held back a grade level. Typically it only happened when a kid missed a lot of school, like they were hit by a car and spent 2 months in the hospital. Failing grades alone didn't usually cause it, at least the kids who seemed completely uninterested in school still somehow managed to graduate.

lynx23 2y ago
"Everybody is a unique snowflake" attitude is causing way more problems then we publically admit. Setting boundaries is important. As is seeing the consequences of your own actions. I was held back in school for a year. Looking back, this was one of the most important things in my school time. I am glad it happened.
- I_o_IllI__o_I 2y ago
  >"Everybody is a unique snowflake" attitude is causing way more problems then we publically admit like what problems?
  - lynx23 2y ago
    Like, systematic lack of resilience.

chefandy 2y ago

> We don't hold kids back anymore and we don't suspend kids anymore. Does that contradict real data that shows holding kids back and suspending them makes them more successful?

Red_Leaves_Flyy 2y ago
Real data on holding kids back is actively harmful. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03055698.2014.936828 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03055698.2014.93... The same holds for suspensions. https://edsource.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Noltemeyer_Ward_2015_Meta-Analysis.pdf https://edsource.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Noltemeyer_W...
- chefandy 2y ago
  As someone subjected to both of these actions, plus expulsion, in lieu of anybody bothering to try and figure out what was wrong, that certainly rings true. However, people just really really love a) nostalgia, b) validating their compulsion to inflict the same pain they experienced as children on young people, and c) watching people in out-groups get punished. It's a lovely thought, but I'll believe that there have been real changes, rather than overblown facets of moral panic about abandoning those bad habits, when I see them.
  - chefandy 2y ago
    Happy to address any counterarguments from the multiple downvoters.
  - sabarn01 2y ago
    If you have a kid that is fighting other kids/teachers what is the school supposed to do.
    - chefandy 2y ago
      A) Suspension is a great way to pretend you're addressing a problem while sweeping it under the rug. If the administrators aren't willing to mediate conflict among students, they should find another line of work. The school has a responsibility to educate their students. If they fail to do that for a student without finding alternate placement better equipped to handle whatever problem they face, they failed in their responsibility. B) If a student has a consistent enough problem with antisocial behavior that they require constant intervention, they should be in a non-mainstream classroom or school that can address that problem while still fulfilling their responsibility to educate them. C) There's a whole lot of punishment doled out in schools for non-violent conduct violations. Caught skipping class? Caught vaping in the parking lot? Dress code violation? Caught copying someone's test? Caught using a phone multiple times when you're not supposed to? You seem to be deliberately implying that questioning any suspension means you support violence in school, which is completely ridiculous. Everything in life can be turned into a black-and-white issue if you ignore enough details and context.

makeitdouble 2y ago

Answering: > I’m talking about stuff like navigating health insurance, paying taxes, budgeting, managing credit, home maintenance, vehicle care. With: > We don't hold kids back anymore and we don't suspend kids anymore is a truely weird logic to me. Is it related ? Or are you offering to let kids get credit lines and suspend them over their mismanagement ? That could actually be a great idea TBH. And while we're at it, adults could also get suspended or have to attend additional courses, instead of getting thrown into debt spirals.