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Watching how the USA has abandoned its ally, Ukraine and just let innocent people and brave soldiers die, Japan would be crazy not too start gaining back their

Watching how the USA has abandoned its ally, Ukraine and just let innocent people and brave soldiers die, Japan would be crazy not too start gaining back their independence. Not sure what happened to the USA but I never thought I’d see it side with autocratic war criminals. Quite concerning for all our allies. If the orange man wins again this year, we’ll god help everyone.

glitchc 3y ago
The US did not want to start a world war over Ukraine. It stepping in would have meant precisely that.
- aredox 3y ago
  Not stepping in is exactly what is going to cause a world war.
  - yesco 3y ago
    So you would prefer the war in Ukraine to go nuclear? This isn't a hypothetical.
    - aredox 3y ago
      What is even less hypotethical is that dozens of countries are now actively making plans to arm themselves with nuclear weapons, as the US refuses to take the risk to step in. Dare to guess what are the risks of nuclear war (even by accident) when that becomes the new normal? The Russian aren't going to make less nuclear threats if the US keeps folding.
- Fauntleroy 3y ago
  They're referring to the sudden end of support for Ukraine, done at the behest of Donald Trump. Republican lawmakers were actually considering continuing it until he demanded they not do so.
- rllearneratwork 3y ago
  where does this logic stop? At whose borders? Because if Ukraine falls I can guarantee you that first it will be minor incursions into Poland and/or Baltics airspace. Then false flags attacks. Then more. Each time testing "escalation management" and sewing disagreements into political scenes in the West. Then more. putin has said many times that he considers collapse of USSR the greatest tragedy ever. He wants revenge for this. And he is getting it.
- pfisch 3y ago
  The US could've and still could flood ukraine with weapons. It wouldn't even be the first proxy war between the US and Russia.
- abcdefg12 3y ago
  That’s how you start a world war. Once US is perceived as weak and indecisive all kinds of genocidal monsters crawl out to do what they want.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- hiddencost 3y ago
  No. The American right wanted to score political points on Biden and refused to pass a very popular funding bill. The consequence has been one of the most pointless, damaging failures of American policy in a very long time. It's one of the most shameful things I've ever seen.
- Adverblessly 3y ago
  And the United Kingdom and France didn't want to start a world war over Austria or the Sudetenland. Appease Russia/Iran/China at your own peril.
  - glitchc 3y ago
    We have to let bad people take the important step of attacking before we defend. Otherwise it becomes thoughtcrime.
rllearneratwork 3y ago
USA abandonment of Ukraine clearly shows to everyone that promises from USA mean nothing at times of real hardship. The sad lesson of all this is that if country wishes to be both safe and independent it must posses its own nuclear weapons and means of delivery.
- all2 3y ago
  Peace through superior firepower or at least mutually assured destruction is a thing.
- pfdietz 3y ago
  Did the US have a defense treaty with Ukraine? As in, something ratified by the Senate?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rich_sasha 3y ago
While I agree with the sentiment and the conclusion, Ukraine was never an ironclad, formal ally, in the sense that NATO countries are, or Japan or Australia. The closest to a formal alliance is the 1994 agreement, whereby Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in return for its borders and sovereignty being guaranteed, by Russia, UK and USA. So within these parameters, the USA has actually done a lot, and a lot more than nothing. I'm not sure at what point it has fulfilled its duty. I'm not defending the US decision though, it seems that bang for buck of helping Ukraine is one of the best spent defence money in this century so far.
- rllearneratwork 3y ago
  "USA has actually done a lot" - so did USA guarantee Ukraine's " borders and sovereignty"? Or did it not? The worst thing to do (which USA did) is to make a promise and not deliver. Had Ukraine knew that USA will abandon it, it might have entered negotiations in early 2023 from a much more favorable position.
  - floxy 3y ago
    >did USA guarantee Ukraine's " borders and sovereignty"? Or did it not? Seems like the U.S. did not guarantee Ukraine's borders and sovereignty. Or at least not according to my reading of The Budapest Memorandum: https://policymemos.hks.harvard.edu/files/policymemos/files/2-23-22_ukraine-the_budapest_memo.pdf?m=1645824948 https://policymemos.hks.harvard.edu/files/policymemos/files/... ...right?
  - ajkjk 3y ago
    Seems to have done a ton, based on the amount of support and aid?
- sushid 3y ago
  So it brokered a protection deal in exchange for nuclear weapons and then... reneged on its promise?
  - Jtsummers 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
User23 3y ago
The USA no longer has the productive power to win any sort of protracted conflict. For example, the USA has virtually no ship building capacity, being almost entirely reliant on Japan and South Korea. It’s a bad look for a country that fancies itself a naval superpower.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > USA has virtually no ship building capacity, being almost entirely reliant on Japan and South Korea We have massive naval shipyards that build our ships and boats. We tooled them down in the 90s to extract a peace dividend.
doublepg23 3y ago
If orange man wins my children won't go die for Ukraine? This is a bad thing?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > If orange man wins my children won't go die for Ukraine? This is a bad thing? We were never sending American troops to Ukraine. What has happened is the chances of American troops having to go somewhere else in the world, or being directly attacked overseas, has gone way up.
  - doublepg23 3y ago
    What is OP suggesting we do then? We've given Ukraine billions in money and resources, the only other thing left is boots on the ground, no?
    - rasz 3y ago
      >billions in money and resources 31 Abrams and 190 Bradleys, zero planes, zero cruise missiles. All while there are 3 million DPICM, thousands of Bradleys and hundreds of ATACMS waiting to be scrapped in US, all decommissioned and on a list to be send to expensive recycling.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > We've given Ukraine billions in money and resources On a drip feed. That means when a strategic opening emerges, e.g. Russian warships within Storm Shadow range, they got one or two pot shots off before running out of ammo, letting the Russians retreat and adapt. Ukraine needs more air-defence batteries and ammunition. It needs F-16s. (For both offense and defense.) And it needs the ability to strike valid military targets in Russia, the way it has been doing with its own weapons, the way Russia has been doing to it.
      - catlover76 3y ago
        [dead]
dotnet00 3y ago
Why is the US the only one being argued to have abandoned its ally despite being the single biggest provider of aid? Why do most of the European allies literally next door to Ukraine need to have their hand twisted or given additional American guarantees to provide aid to a mutual ally despite already having the nuclear umbrella and NATO's mutual defense guarantees? Are they not siding with autocratic war criminals? Don't they also believe in the "rules based world order"? As it stands the US already has its energy focused on helping their other ally slaughter children, and Trump seems just as keen to keep that going. It's clearly a more important task to the ruling class.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Why is the US the only one being argued to have abandoned its ally despite being the single biggest provider of aid? We’re Europe’s security guarantor. And the U.S. and U.K. signed the Budapest Memorandum. While we aren’t in breach of that Memo (as Moscow is), we are sort of violating its spirit.
  - floxy 3y ago
    >We’re Europe’s security guarantor. I'd love to see polling on this this question: "Is the United States Europe's security guarantor?" ...for the U.S., countries in Europe, and other countries around the world.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/48744-most-americans-like-nato-say-us-should-defend-allies https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/48744-most-americ... https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/02/09/nato-seen-favorably-across-member-states/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/02/09/nato-seen-favo...
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Why is the US the only one being argued to have abandoned its ally despite being the single biggest provider of aid? The US has only been accused of abandoning Ukraine since (approximately; there’s some blurriness because of some trickling out of previously-approved, unused, aid) it stopped providing aid. That’s the point of alleged abandonment.
yesco 3y ago
And where are you from? What has your country done for Ukraine?
- bamboozled 3y ago
  The USA sir.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
thehappypm 3y ago
[flagged]
- bamboozled 3y ago
  It's not about Ukraine alone, it's about defending the ideals which America and the west at large has prospered greatly from and it's about messaging. There is absolutely no way US ally's are watching this favorably. Is America out of money and weapons, so they can't afford to help? I doubt it. Seems like the actual problem is a cultural shift with the US leadership towards favoring autocrats over those who want to defend democracy. You don't get to be in charge of the global world currency by ignoring those who want to partner with you while they are being destroyed by an autocrat. It will erode trust. Nothing is free, especially being the top dog. I also don't see people complaining so much about the ridiculous amount of aid going to Israel, even though I don't really have a problem with that either because I personally think it's for a good cause. But this really seems to be about votes, and here, I'll say it, US politics being hijacked by nut jobs and conspiracy theorists. I personally think the US at large is currently the victim of Russian propaganda efforts. I just can't imagine how the US would've ended up helping out Russia so much again it's European allies all on it's own.
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    > You don't get to be in charge of the global world currency by ignoring those who want to partner with you while they are being destroyed by an autocrat. It will erode trust. Brazil and China have already started trading without USD precisely because of that.
- dang 3y ago
  No name-calling or personal attacks, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - thehappypm 3y ago
    Edited, apologies dang
throw0101c 3y ago
> Watching how the USA has abandoned its ally, Ukraine […] Has the US abandoned Ukraine, or has the GOP abandoned Ukraine? There's a difference.
- TiredOfLife 3y ago
  US. Obama a famous republican refused to help "not to provoke russia". On the current delayed vote it was a sizeable amount of democrats that refused to sign to force the vote (coincidentally the same ones that signed the letter calling for Ukraine to surrender and get exterminated by russia)
floxy 3y ago
>USA has abandoned its ally, While we should probably do more, since when are the U.S. and Ukraine allies? Is every country that hasn't engaged in recent hostilities allies?

glitchc 3y ago

The US did not want to start a world war over Ukraine. It stepping in would have meant precisely that.

aredox 3y ago
Not stepping in is exactly what is going to cause a world war.
- yesco 3y ago
  So you would prefer the war in Ukraine to go nuclear? This isn't a hypothetical.
  - aredox 3y ago
    What is even less hypotethical is that dozens of countries are now actively making plans to arm themselves with nuclear weapons, as the US refuses to take the risk to step in. Dare to guess what are the risks of nuclear war (even by accident) when that becomes the new normal? The Russian aren't going to make less nuclear threats if the US keeps folding.
Fauntleroy 3y ago
They're referring to the sudden end of support for Ukraine, done at the behest of Donald Trump. Republican lawmakers were actually considering continuing it until he demanded they not do so.
rllearneratwork 3y ago
where does this logic stop? At whose borders? Because if Ukraine falls I can guarantee you that first it will be minor incursions into Poland and/or Baltics airspace. Then false flags attacks. Then more. Each time testing "escalation management" and sewing disagreements into political scenes in the West. Then more. putin has said many times that he considers collapse of USSR the greatest tragedy ever. He wants revenge for this. And he is getting it.
pfisch 3y ago
The US could've and still could flood ukraine with weapons. It wouldn't even be the first proxy war between the US and Russia.
abcdefg12 3y ago
That’s how you start a world war. Once US is perceived as weak and indecisive all kinds of genocidal monsters crawl out to do what they want.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hiddencost 3y ago
No. The American right wanted to score political points on Biden and refused to pass a very popular funding bill. The consequence has been one of the most pointless, damaging failures of American policy in a very long time. It's one of the most shameful things I've ever seen.
Adverblessly 3y ago
And the United Kingdom and France didn't want to start a world war over Austria or the Sudetenland. Appease Russia/Iran/China at your own peril.
- glitchc 3y ago
  We have to let bad people take the important step of attacking before we defend. Otherwise it becomes thoughtcrime.

rllearneratwork 3y ago

USA abandonment of Ukraine clearly shows to everyone that promises from USA mean nothing at times of real hardship. The sad lesson of all this is that if country wishes to be both safe and independent it must posses its own nuclear weapons and means of delivery.

all2 3y ago
Peace through superior firepower or at least mutually assured destruction is a thing.
pfdietz 3y ago
Did the US have a defense treaty with Ukraine? As in, something ratified by the Senate?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rich_sasha 3y ago

While I agree with the sentiment and the conclusion, Ukraine was never an ironclad, formal ally, in the sense that NATO countries are, or Japan or Australia. The closest to a formal alliance is the 1994 agreement, whereby Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in return for its borders and sovereignty being guaranteed, by Russia, UK and USA. So within these parameters, the USA has actually done a lot, and a lot more than nothing. I'm not sure at what point it has fulfilled its duty. I'm not defending the US decision though, it seems that bang for buck of helping Ukraine is one of the best spent defence money in this century so far.

rllearneratwork 3y ago
"USA has actually done a lot" - so did USA guarantee Ukraine's " borders and sovereignty"? Or did it not? The worst thing to do (which USA did) is to make a promise and not deliver. Had Ukraine knew that USA will abandon it, it might have entered negotiations in early 2023 from a much more favorable position.
- floxy 3y ago
  >did USA guarantee Ukraine's " borders and sovereignty"? Or did it not? Seems like the U.S. did not guarantee Ukraine's borders and sovereignty. Or at least not according to my reading of The Budapest Memorandum: https://policymemos.hks.harvard.edu/files/policymemos/files/2-23-22_ukraine-the_budapest_memo.pdf?m=1645824948 https://policymemos.hks.harvard.edu/files/policymemos/files/... ...right?
- ajkjk 3y ago
  Seems to have done a ton, based on the amount of support and aid?
sushid 3y ago
So it brokered a protection deal in exchange for nuclear weapons and then... reneged on its promise?
- Jtsummers 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

User23 3y ago

The USA no longer has the productive power to win any sort of protracted conflict. For example, the USA has virtually no ship building capacity, being almost entirely reliant on Japan and South Korea. It’s a bad look for a country that fancies itself a naval superpower.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> USA has virtually no ship building capacity, being almost entirely reliant on Japan and South Korea We have massive naval shipyards that build our ships and boats. We tooled them down in the 90s to extract a peace dividend.

doublepg23 3y ago

If orange man wins my children won't go die for Ukraine? This is a bad thing?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> If orange man wins my children won't go die for Ukraine? This is a bad thing? We were never sending American troops to Ukraine. What has happened is the chances of American troops having to go somewhere else in the world, or being directly attacked overseas, has gone way up.
- doublepg23 3y ago
  What is OP suggesting we do then? We've given Ukraine billions in money and resources, the only other thing left is boots on the ground, no?
  - rasz 3y ago
    >billions in money and resources 31 Abrams and 190 Bradleys, zero planes, zero cruise missiles. All while there are 3 million DPICM, thousands of Bradleys and hundreds of ATACMS waiting to be scrapped in US, all decommissioned and on a list to be send to expensive recycling.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > We've given Ukraine billions in money and resources On a drip feed. That means when a strategic opening emerges, e.g. Russian warships within Storm Shadow range, they got one or two pot shots off before running out of ammo, letting the Russians retreat and adapt. Ukraine needs more air-defence batteries and ammunition. It needs F-16s. (For both offense and defense.) And it needs the ability to strike valid military targets in Russia, the way it has been doing with its own weapons, the way Russia has been doing to it.
    - catlover76 3y ago
      [dead]

dotnet00 3y ago

Why is the US the only one being argued to have abandoned its ally despite being the single biggest provider of aid? Why do most of the European allies literally next door to Ukraine need to have their hand twisted or given additional American guarantees to provide aid to a mutual ally despite already having the nuclear umbrella and NATO's mutual defense guarantees? Are they not siding with autocratic war criminals? Don't they also believe in the "rules based world order"? As it stands the US already has its energy focused on helping their other ally slaughter children, and Trump seems just as keen to keep that going. It's clearly a more important task to the ruling class.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Why is the US the only one being argued to have abandoned its ally despite being the single biggest provider of aid? We’re Europe’s security guarantor. And the U.S. and U.K. signed the Budapest Memorandum. While we aren’t in breach of that Memo (as Moscow is), we are sort of violating its spirit.
- floxy 3y ago
  >We’re Europe’s security guarantor. I'd love to see polling on this this question: "Is the United States Europe's security guarantor?" ...for the U.S., countries in Europe, and other countries around the world.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/48744-most-americans-like-nato-say-us-should-defend-allies https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/48744-most-americ... https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/02/09/nato-seen-favorably-across-member-states/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/02/09/nato-seen-favo...
dragonwriter 3y ago
> Why is the US the only one being argued to have abandoned its ally despite being the single biggest provider of aid? The US has only been accused of abandoning Ukraine since (approximately; there’s some blurriness because of some trickling out of previously-approved, unused, aid) it stopped providing aid. That’s the point of alleged abandonment.

yesco 3y ago

And where are you from? What has your country done for Ukraine?

bamboozled 3y ago
The USA sir.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

thehappypm 3y ago

[flagged]

bamboozled 3y ago
It's not about Ukraine alone, it's about defending the ideals which America and the west at large has prospered greatly from and it's about messaging. There is absolutely no way US ally's are watching this favorably. Is America out of money and weapons, so they can't afford to help? I doubt it. Seems like the actual problem is a cultural shift with the US leadership towards favoring autocrats over those who want to defend democracy. You don't get to be in charge of the global world currency by ignoring those who want to partner with you while they are being destroyed by an autocrat. It will erode trust. Nothing is free, especially being the top dog. I also don't see people complaining so much about the ridiculous amount of aid going to Israel, even though I don't really have a problem with that either because I personally think it's for a good cause. But this really seems to be about votes, and here, I'll say it, US politics being hijacked by nut jobs and conspiracy theorists. I personally think the US at large is currently the victim of Russian propaganda efforts. I just can't imagine how the US would've ended up helping out Russia so much again it's European allies all on it's own.
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  > You don't get to be in charge of the global world currency by ignoring those who want to partner with you while they are being destroyed by an autocrat. It will erode trust. Brazil and China have already started trading without USD precisely because of that.
dang 3y ago
No name-calling or personal attacks, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- thehappypm 3y ago
  Edited, apologies dang

throw0101c 3y ago

> Watching how the USA has abandoned its ally, Ukraine […] Has the US abandoned Ukraine, or has the GOP abandoned Ukraine? There's a difference.

TiredOfLife 3y ago
US. Obama a famous republican refused to help "not to provoke russia". On the current delayed vote it was a sizeable amount of democrats that refused to sign to force the vote (coincidentally the same ones that signed the letter calling for Ukraine to surrender and get exterminated by russia)

floxy 3y ago

>USA has abandoned its ally, While we should probably do more, since when are the U.S. and Ukraine allies? Is every country that hasn't engaged in recent hostilities allies?