4 ms·

> But your position starts from the basis that we were race-neutral to begin with No, it starts from the position that race is not the most important facet of

> But your position starts from the basis that we were race-neutral to begin with No, it starts from the position that race is not the most important facet of a human being's life. > So without intention you'll simply perpetuate the negative voices. Almost none of a person's daily life is dominated by racial issues, except maybe people who specifically work in that field of course, and so very little news would have racial relevance. Going out of your way to use race as a lens on every issue is why it's forced.

dtjb 3y ago
>Almost none of a person's daily life is dominated by racial issues I won't presume to know your race but many americans do not live with such comfort. Studies have documented how race is correlated to outcomes in everyday encounters such as traffic stops, employment interviews, rental applications, health care treatment, and school performance.
- subsistence234 3y ago
  that's your religion
- naasking 3y ago
  > Studies have documented how race is correlated to outcomes in everyday encounters such as traffic stops, employment interviews, rental applications, health care treatment, and school performance. Traffic stops, employment interviews, rental applications, and health care treatment are not events a single person experiences every day, so even if race was a huge factor in all of them, and "huge" is debatable, this is all besides the point.
  - dtjb 3y ago
    But all of those things directly affect their every day lives. Your experience and the assumptions you've drawn are not representative for large swaths of america.
  - kenjackson 3y ago
    > Traffic stops, employment interviews, rental applications, and health care treatment are not events a single person experiences every day Really? You don't think the outcomes from those events impact your everyday life?
Spivak 3y ago
I don't think folks that focus on race would actually disagree with your first point, it is the goal of every minority to have their minority status not be the dominating force in how they're perceived. The long game has always been to take some contentious minority status and make it boring and commonplace. An example where you can see the success of the LGBT movement in real time is how "coming out" for gay folks is fading away because it's not some big deal most places anymore. Saying you like girls is trending towards the moral gravity of saying you prefer chocolate ice cream. And how we got to this point is by making sexual orientation a lens on lots of different issues — gay marriage, sodomy laws, public indecency, access to prep, blood donations, aids treatments,... until people just start to consider their existence by default. You stop having to "advocate" for them. And in an ironic twist of fate one of the largest contributing factors to lgbt acceptance happening so fast was huge amounts of marketing pushing pretty white people, specifically pretty white femme women as the least offensive gays to raise all ships with the tide. Once you see it you can't unsee it, the same playbook is happening with the trans folks with pretty white trans women and afab enbys.
kenjackson 3y ago
> Almost none of a person's daily life is dominated by racial issues I can't say race "dominates" my daily life -- but as a matter of politics it probably ranks #2 after issues directly related to income (mostly taxes). And I can confidently say that almost all of the negative in-person interactions I've had in my life have almost exclusively been because of race. Why do you think racial politics works so well? Why do Black women align more strongly with racial causes than gender causes? Is it because gender issues aren't really important? Do you think that if there was less identity politics that things would actually be better for minorities? Or would it mostly be better for the majority?
- nsagent 3y ago
  There are frequently better lenses for examining these issues, like culture and socioeconomics. These explain a larger portion of the variance than race in many circumstances. For example, black immigrants from Africa have a very different outlook than American descendants of slavery [1], with black immigrants having higher educational attainment than any other demographic [2] in the US. A similar finding has been observed in the UK [3]. It's true that systemic racism has disadvantaged African Americans even after the Civil Rights movement, but interestingly the income gap is wider for black men than it is for black women [4] indicating there are more factors at play than racism alone since black women face similar amounts of discrimination as black men [5]. That said, I don't discount the impact that both implicit and explicit racism can have. I just think it's important to take a more holistic view rather than falling back on identity as the main causal factor. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/us/slavery-black-immigrants-ados.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/us/slavery-black-immigran... [2]: https://www.chicagotribune.com/2007/03/18/black-immigrants-collect-most-degrees/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/2007/03/18/black-immigrants-c... [3]: https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-10/the_achievement_of_black_african_children_in_england_2021.pdf https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-10/the_a... [4]: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-inheritance-of-black-poverty-its-all-about-the-men/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-inheritance-of-black-... [5]: https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2020/07/black-women-social-justice https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2020/07/black-women-...
- naasking 3y ago

dtjb 3y ago

>Almost none of a person's daily life is dominated by racial issues I won't presume to know your race but many americans do not live with such comfort. Studies have documented how race is correlated to outcomes in everyday encounters such as traffic stops, employment interviews, rental applications, health care treatment, and school performance.

subsistence234 3y ago
that's your religion
naasking 3y ago
> Studies have documented how race is correlated to outcomes in everyday encounters such as traffic stops, employment interviews, rental applications, health care treatment, and school performance. Traffic stops, employment interviews, rental applications, and health care treatment are not events a single person experiences every day, so even if race was a huge factor in all of them, and "huge" is debatable, this is all besides the point.
- dtjb 3y ago
  But all of those things directly affect their every day lives. Your experience and the assumptions you've drawn are not representative for large swaths of america.
- kenjackson 3y ago
  > Traffic stops, employment interviews, rental applications, and health care treatment are not events a single person experiences every day Really? You don't think the outcomes from those events impact your everyday life?

Spivak 3y ago

I don't think folks that focus on race would actually disagree with your first point, it is the goal of every minority to have their minority status not be the dominating force in how they're perceived. The long game has always been to take some contentious minority status and make it boring and commonplace. An example where you can see the success of the LGBT movement in real time is how "coming out" for gay folks is fading away because it's not some big deal most places anymore. Saying you like girls is trending towards the moral gravity of saying you prefer chocolate ice cream. And how we got to this point is by making sexual orientation a lens on lots of different issues — gay marriage, sodomy laws, public indecency, access to prep, blood donations, aids treatments,... until people just start to consider their existence by default. You stop having to "advocate" for them. And in an ironic twist of fate one of the largest contributing factors to lgbt acceptance happening so fast was huge amounts of marketing pushing pretty white people, specifically pretty white femme women as the least offensive gays to raise all ships with the tide. Once you see it you can't unsee it, the same playbook is happening with the trans folks with pretty white trans women and afab enbys.

kenjackson 3y ago

> Almost none of a person's daily life is dominated by racial issues I can't say race "dominates" my daily life -- but as a matter of politics it probably ranks #2 after issues directly related to income (mostly taxes). And I can confidently say that almost all of the negative in-person interactions I've had in my life have almost exclusively been because of race. Why do you think racial politics works so well? Why do Black women align more strongly with racial causes than gender causes? Is it because gender issues aren't really important? Do you think that if there was less identity politics that things would actually be better for minorities? Or would it mostly be better for the majority?

nsagent 3y ago
There are frequently better lenses for examining these issues, like culture and socioeconomics. These explain a larger portion of the variance than race in many circumstances. For example, black immigrants from Africa have a very different outlook than American descendants of slavery [1], with black immigrants having higher educational attainment than any other demographic [2] in the US. A similar finding has been observed in the UK [3]. It's true that systemic racism has disadvantaged African Americans even after the Civil Rights movement, but interestingly the income gap is wider for black men than it is for black women [4] indicating there are more factors at play than racism alone since black women face similar amounts of discrimination as black men [5]. That said, I don't discount the impact that both implicit and explicit racism can have. I just think it's important to take a more holistic view rather than falling back on identity as the main causal factor. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/us/slavery-black-immigrants-ados.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/us/slavery-black-immigran... [2]: https://www.chicagotribune.com/2007/03/18/black-immigrants-collect-most-degrees/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/2007/03/18/black-immigrants-c... [3]: https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-10/the_achievement_of_black_african_children_in_england_2021.pdf https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-10/the_a... [4]: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-inheritance-of-black-poverty-its-all-about-the-men/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-inheritance-of-black-... [5]: https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2020/07/black-women-social-justice https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2020/07/black-women-...
naasking 3y ago