4 ms·

Oh you have a comprehensive physical model of individual human behavior do you, in particular the decision making process of life-changing choices? I'd love to

Oh you have a comprehensive physical model of individual human behavior do you, in particular the decision making process of life-changing choices? I'd love to see the publication.

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
The future is still a function of the past, even if we lack that function's complete specification.
- dumbo-octopus 3y ago
  Yes, we can believe many things without any proof or justification. We call that religion, not "physics". Edit: this was in response to a prior edit of the parent that (correctly) explicitly stated their position was a personal belief, not some sort of universally acknowledged axiom as they have since edited it to seem.
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    The spirit of the edit was for clarity of position, sorry for the misdirection.
- constantcrying 3y ago
  >The future is still a function of the past If you don't believe in conscious choice the whole debate is moot anyway.
  - brabel 3y ago
    That's not the claim. The claim is that if you're born poor, your chances of being poor when you become an adult are much higher. Perhaps you know that and still think that because the kid who is born poor "chose" to stay poor, but I hope no one capable of having a discussion about this topic thinks like that.
    - dumbo-octopus 3y ago
      No, that is not the claim. That is a simple statistical fact that is obvious to anyone who looks at the data. The claim is that folks are nothing more than "a derivation of their previous person states", and that correspondingly there is little to nothing a person can choose to do to escape the path set for them by their start state. I personally think this is blatantly false, and I have many observations to support my position.
      - brabel 3y ago
        > folks are nothing more than "a derivation of their previous person states" FFS that's an unbelievably bad interpretation. Are you just trolling or you really can't see the difference between that interpretation and "what we become depends in great part on where we're starting from"??
        __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
        My feeling is that dumbo-octopus wants to fight somebody who believes that we have no agency and that socioeconomic conditions entirely determine our future, but it's not working because there's nobody like that nearby.
        dumbo-octopus 3y ago
        My reply was to erikerikson, who I there directly quoted. Just because y'all jumped in in their stead does not make you authorities on their opinion. That said, I've been happy to disagree with the exact points you've made whenever you've made them. (Excepting, I suppose, your comment about the spirit of the edit, which I have no way to reasonably contest)
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        dumbo-octopus 3y ago
        Where does this quote you have made up come from? I am directly quoting the comment I directly replied to, you seem to be quoting... absolutely nothing? It's not on this page or the main article at least. Or do you use quotation marks to mean something besides a quote? If you don't disagree with my criticism of the comment I replied to, you've certainly picked an odd way to express that.
  - lynx23 3y ago
    IIRC, free will is pretty much a myth, and beliefs are not relevant when it comes to science...
    - dumbo-octopus 3y ago
      There is 0 scientific basis for your statement.
      - lynx23 2y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will#Free_will_as_illusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will#Free...
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    I wasn't trying to argue against free will or anything like that (I'm a compatibilist about that debate). I was just trying to point out that it's obvious that prior conditions are relevant. Prior decisions also. But free or not, there's nowhere to come from but the past. It's a weird thing to be pointing out, like... duh, but the context was a bunch of: > You have to balk when anyone says.... and > You have to disbelieve anyone who says... And I was hoping to establish that we in this thread do in fact agree that causation works in one direction only. It would seem I failed.
    - dumbo-octopus 3y ago
      We do not agree, direction of causation is a matter of personal interpretation. And I'm not the only one who believes a reversal of order could be justified, Scott Aaronson's essay The Ghost in the Quantum Turing Machine^ goes into far more detail on the matter than I could hope to here. It's long but thorough - I highly recommend it if you have the time. To overly simplify it: imagine a piece of quantum state is not observed at any point between the universal T0 and TNow. Further, imagine a decision made at TNow is effectively a measurement of that state. There is absolutely 0 way to say that the state was "in" that configuration "before" your measurement, it is 100% equally valid to say that your decision "caused" the state to assume that value, which would be interpreted as your choice causing a propagation backwards in time to the initial configuration. (The essay goes into more details around "No Hidden State" objections to this interpretation.) ^ https://arxiv.org/abs/1306.0159 https://arxiv.org/abs/1306.0159

Oh you have a comprehensive physical model of individual human behavior do you, in particular the decision making process of life-changing choices? I'd love to see the publication.

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago

The future is still a function of the past, even if we lack that function's complete specification.

dumbo-octopus 3y ago
Yes, we can believe many things without any proof or justification. We call that religion, not "physics". Edit: this was in response to a prior edit of the parent that (correctly) explicitly stated their position was a personal belief, not some sort of universally acknowledged axiom as they have since edited it to seem.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  The spirit of the edit was for clarity of position, sorry for the misdirection.
constantcrying 3y ago
>The future is still a function of the past If you don't believe in conscious choice the whole debate is moot anyway.
- brabel 3y ago
  That's not the claim. The claim is that if you're born poor, your chances of being poor when you become an adult are much higher. Perhaps you know that and still think that because the kid who is born poor "chose" to stay poor, but I hope no one capable of having a discussion about this topic thinks like that.
  - dumbo-octopus 3y ago
    No, that is not the claim. That is a simple statistical fact that is obvious to anyone who looks at the data. The claim is that folks are nothing more than "a derivation of their previous person states", and that correspondingly there is little to nothing a person can choose to do to escape the path set for them by their start state. I personally think this is blatantly false, and I have many observations to support my position.
    - brabel 3y ago
      > folks are nothing more than "a derivation of their previous person states" FFS that's an unbelievably bad interpretation. Are you just trolling or you really can't see the difference between that interpretation and "what we become depends in great part on where we're starting from"??
      - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
        My feeling is that dumbo-octopus wants to fight somebody who believes that we have no agency and that socioeconomic conditions entirely determine our future, but it's not working because there's nobody like that nearby.
        dumbo-octopus 3y ago
        My reply was to erikerikson, who I there directly quoted. Just because y'all jumped in in their stead does not make you authorities on their opinion. That said, I've been happy to disagree with the exact points you've made whenever you've made them. (Excepting, I suppose, your comment about the spirit of the edit, which I have no way to reasonably contest)
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - dumbo-octopus 3y ago
        Where does this quote you have made up come from? I am directly quoting the comment I directly replied to, you seem to be quoting... absolutely nothing? It's not on this page or the main article at least. Or do you use quotation marks to mean something besides a quote? If you don't disagree with my criticism of the comment I replied to, you've certainly picked an odd way to express that.
- lynx23 3y ago
  IIRC, free will is pretty much a myth, and beliefs are not relevant when it comes to science...
  - dumbo-octopus 3y ago
    There is 0 scientific basis for your statement.
    - lynx23 2y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will#Free_will_as_illusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will#Free...
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  I wasn't trying to argue against free will or anything like that (I'm a compatibilist about that debate). I was just trying to point out that it's obvious that prior conditions are relevant. Prior decisions also. But free or not, there's nowhere to come from but the past. It's a weird thing to be pointing out, like... duh, but the context was a bunch of: > You have to balk when anyone says.... and > You have to disbelieve anyone who says... And I was hoping to establish that we in this thread do in fact agree that causation works in one direction only. It would seem I failed.
  - dumbo-octopus 3y ago
    We do not agree, direction of causation is a matter of personal interpretation. And I'm not the only one who believes a reversal of order could be justified, Scott Aaronson's essay The Ghost in the Quantum Turing Machine^ goes into far more detail on the matter than I could hope to here. It's long but thorough - I highly recommend it if you have the time. To overly simplify it: imagine a piece of quantum state is not observed at any point between the universal T0 and TNow. Further, imagine a decision made at TNow is effectively a measurement of that state. There is absolutely 0 way to say that the state was "in" that configuration "before" your measurement, it is 100% equally valid to say that your decision "caused" the state to assume that value, which would be interpreted as your choice causing a propagation backwards in time to the initial configuration. (The essay goes into more details around "No Hidden State" objections to this interpretation.) ^ https://arxiv.org/abs/1306.0159 https://arxiv.org/abs/1306.0159