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I think the idea is that "only support your family" harms everyone. The example, Alex, has 2 kids, works manual labor to earn poverty wages, and is depressed. W

I think the idea is that "only support your family" harms everyone. The example, Alex, has 2 kids, works manual labor to earn poverty wages, and is depressed. Which one of the types of teen do you think his kids will be? The common refrain is "then he shouldn't have had kids" but unless you're going to create an authoritarian state people will always have kids (and restricting kids went awfully for China anyway).

s1artibartfast 3y ago
I think social and individual expectations are a big part of this. Why is Alex depressed? If they had 20k more a year, would they be happier, or just 2 steps ahead on and empty hedonistic treadmill. Alex now has a new mustang, but is still depressed and fails as a parent. I think it would be interesting to see the relative impact of a 2 parent + low risk home vs income, and I think there is a lot lost when people assume every variable reduces to income. What about Alex when they have low income, but a healthy home life? What about Alex when they have higher income, but a shit home life?
- nvy 3y ago
  Money actually does buy happiness, despite what the wealthy would like you to believe. It is very likely that yes, he would in fact be happier with an extra 20k a year. You don't know he'd have a new mustang; that's just you projecting. He might put the extra 20k a year into savings for his kid's education - I know that feeling like I'm setting my kids up for future success makes me happy.
  - dmoy 3y ago
    Money buys happiness, up to a point. It's like a pretty linear increase in happiness to some spot somewhere above median income (I forget, something like 1.5x median income). After that, it has very little impact on happiness, if at all. Supposedly, based on some studies.
    - Jaygles 3y ago
      Another way to view it is to say poverty buys misery
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Money can buy happiness, but it isn't a guarantee, and isn't necessarily the most important factor. Kill Alex's parents, and rape them as a child, addict them to meth, and 20k wont fix that. This article and data is in desperate need of a Analysis of variance for the different factors.
  - antisthenes 3y ago
    > Money actually does buy happiness, despite what the wealthy would like you to believe. Individual happiness and being a good parent (which contributes to breaking the cycle) don't necessarily intersect as much as you think, or at least it's based on the individual. Some people's happiness is only marginally related to how well their kids are doing (as evident by rise in single-parent households), so the 20k may contribute essentially 0 to the long term solution. > You don't know he'd have a new mustang; that's just you projecting. If I don't know, then you don't know either. You're taking the other good extreme and presenting is at fact. The reality is somewhere in the middle.
    - nvy 3y ago
      It's like you didn't read anything I wrote, and then built your own straw man to argue with.
      - antisthenes 3y ago
        No, I just pointed out that your absolutist statements look ridiculous.
        nvy 3y ago
        So just to be clear: you think "it is very likely" or "he might" are absolutist statements? Is that what you're saying?
        antisthenes 3y ago
        No. Look at what I quoted originally.
- micromacrofoot 3y ago
  I'm not sure who you know that makes $40k and has a foot on a "hedonistic treadmill"
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Most everyone I know, of all incomes, are on some form of hedonistic treadmill. Sometimes it is one beer and cigarette to the next, sometimes it's one sailboat and handbag to the next.
    - micromacrofoot 3y ago
      There are plenty of pre-industrialized peoples that smoked tobacco, drank alcohol, and did drugs recreationally. Were they too on hedonistic treadmills? It's funny how Americans love to brag about how they have the freedom to do whatever and pay less tax, but then turn around and treat their poor like fools if they live in any way that doesn't resemble soviet-era russia. This is the same thing boomers do when they tell millennials to stop eating avocado toast to pay their school loans.
      - latency-guy2 3y ago
        > Were they too on hedonistic treadmills? Yes. > It's funny how Americans love to brag about how they have the freedom to do whatever and pay less tax, but then turn around and treat their poor like fools if they live in any way that doesn't resemble soviet-era russia. You have things quite backwards, the stereotype of USSR and it's successor is large amounts of vodka and mindlessly wrestling bears. The USA added an amendment to their constitution banning the sale of alcohol and took a while to get repealed. > This is the same thing boomers do when they tell millennials to stop eating avocado toast to pay their school loans. I think citing internet memes is not a good plan.
        micromacrofoot 3y ago
        > the stereotype of USSR and it's successor is large amounts of vodka and mindlessly wrestling bears also lines for bread and austerity, that's what I mean > I think citing internet memes is not a good plan. while that example is memified, this is still a commonly held belief that I see reiterated almost daily (of course they're poor, they're buying iPhones! for example)
ericmcer 3y ago
Convincing people that their problems are outside of their control and that the only way to solve them is to vote a certain way is also a form of authoritarianism. If you aren't to blame for your own life that implies you have no control over it.
- micromacrofoot 3y ago
  Statistically most people born into poverty stay there. Do you think most of them aren't trying? Conversely, do you thing most people born wealthy have to put as much effort into staying wealthy? There are a number of systemic barriers, one of the big ones mentioned in this demonstration is education. If we had equal baseline access to education, housing, healthcare, and food... then sure, if people stayed impoverished I might begin to agree with you. We're not even close in our current state so "you're in control of your own life" is a completely ignorant argument.
  - ericmcer 3y ago
    The system is obviously not fair but individuals are still responsible for how they play their hand. You really think it is ignorant to believe you have control over your life? What do you do just lay on the floor and wait for things to wash over you?
    - vundercind 3y ago
      There should be an Internet law for the phenomenon of taking systemic or statistical analyses personally and then dismissing them on that basis. It’s so common and always just results in a mess of people commenting past each other. That it’s possible to work one’s way out of poverty or to maintain a healthy weight through willpower or what have you is simply irrelevant when talking policy. Its only possible role is to dismiss the problem or discourage action. The reverse is also true: that a system could hypothetically make it easier for one to succeed is irrelevant to the individual who’s trying to decide what to do to improve their life in the system that currently exists.
    - micromacrofoot 3y ago

s1artibartfast 3y ago

I think social and individual expectations are a big part of this. Why is Alex depressed? If they had 20k more a year, would they be happier, or just 2 steps ahead on and empty hedonistic treadmill. Alex now has a new mustang, but is still depressed and fails as a parent. I think it would be interesting to see the relative impact of a 2 parent + low risk home vs income, and I think there is a lot lost when people assume every variable reduces to income. What about Alex when they have low income, but a healthy home life? What about Alex when they have higher income, but a shit home life?

nvy 3y ago
Money actually does buy happiness, despite what the wealthy would like you to believe. It is very likely that yes, he would in fact be happier with an extra 20k a year. You don't know he'd have a new mustang; that's just you projecting. He might put the extra 20k a year into savings for his kid's education - I know that feeling like I'm setting my kids up for future success makes me happy.
- dmoy 3y ago
  Money buys happiness, up to a point. It's like a pretty linear increase in happiness to some spot somewhere above median income (I forget, something like 1.5x median income). After that, it has very little impact on happiness, if at all. Supposedly, based on some studies.
  - Jaygles 3y ago
    Another way to view it is to say poverty buys misery
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Money can buy happiness, but it isn't a guarantee, and isn't necessarily the most important factor. Kill Alex's parents, and rape them as a child, addict them to meth, and 20k wont fix that. This article and data is in desperate need of a Analysis of variance for the different factors.
- antisthenes 3y ago
  > Money actually does buy happiness, despite what the wealthy would like you to believe. Individual happiness and being a good parent (which contributes to breaking the cycle) don't necessarily intersect as much as you think, or at least it's based on the individual. Some people's happiness is only marginally related to how well their kids are doing (as evident by rise in single-parent households), so the 20k may contribute essentially 0 to the long term solution. > You don't know he'd have a new mustang; that's just you projecting. If I don't know, then you don't know either. You're taking the other good extreme and presenting is at fact. The reality is somewhere in the middle.
  - nvy 3y ago
    It's like you didn't read anything I wrote, and then built your own straw man to argue with.
    - antisthenes 3y ago
      No, I just pointed out that your absolutist statements look ridiculous.
      - nvy 3y ago
        So just to be clear: you think "it is very likely" or "he might" are absolutist statements? Is that what you're saying?
        antisthenes 3y ago
        No. Look at what I quoted originally.
micromacrofoot 3y ago
I'm not sure who you know that makes $40k and has a foot on a "hedonistic treadmill"
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Most everyone I know, of all incomes, are on some form of hedonistic treadmill. Sometimes it is one beer and cigarette to the next, sometimes it's one sailboat and handbag to the next.
  - micromacrofoot 3y ago
    There are plenty of pre-industrialized peoples that smoked tobacco, drank alcohol, and did drugs recreationally. Were they too on hedonistic treadmills? It's funny how Americans love to brag about how they have the freedom to do whatever and pay less tax, but then turn around and treat their poor like fools if they live in any way that doesn't resemble soviet-era russia. This is the same thing boomers do when they tell millennials to stop eating avocado toast to pay their school loans.
    - latency-guy2 3y ago
      > Were they too on hedonistic treadmills? Yes. > It's funny how Americans love to brag about how they have the freedom to do whatever and pay less tax, but then turn around and treat their poor like fools if they live in any way that doesn't resemble soviet-era russia. You have things quite backwards, the stereotype of USSR and it's successor is large amounts of vodka and mindlessly wrestling bears. The USA added an amendment to their constitution banning the sale of alcohol and took a while to get repealed. > This is the same thing boomers do when they tell millennials to stop eating avocado toast to pay their school loans. I think citing internet memes is not a good plan.
      - micromacrofoot 3y ago
        > the stereotype of USSR and it's successor is large amounts of vodka and mindlessly wrestling bears also lines for bread and austerity, that's what I mean > I think citing internet memes is not a good plan. while that example is memified, this is still a commonly held belief that I see reiterated almost daily (of course they're poor, they're buying iPhones! for example)

ericmcer 3y ago

Convincing people that their problems are outside of their control and that the only way to solve them is to vote a certain way is also a form of authoritarianism. If you aren't to blame for your own life that implies you have no control over it.

micromacrofoot 3y ago
Statistically most people born into poverty stay there. Do you think most of them aren't trying? Conversely, do you thing most people born wealthy have to put as much effort into staying wealthy? There are a number of systemic barriers, one of the big ones mentioned in this demonstration is education. If we had equal baseline access to education, housing, healthcare, and food... then sure, if people stayed impoverished I might begin to agree with you. We're not even close in our current state so "you're in control of your own life" is a completely ignorant argument.
- ericmcer 3y ago
  The system is obviously not fair but individuals are still responsible for how they play their hand. You really think it is ignorant to believe you have control over your life? What do you do just lay on the floor and wait for things to wash over you?
  - vundercind 3y ago
    There should be an Internet law for the phenomenon of taking systemic or statistical analyses personally and then dismissing them on that basis. It’s so common and always just results in a mess of people commenting past each other. That it’s possible to work one’s way out of poverty or to maintain a healthy weight through willpower or what have you is simply irrelevant when talking policy. Its only possible role is to dismiss the problem or discourage action. The reverse is also true: that a system could hypothetically make it easier for one to succeed is irrelevant to the individual who’s trying to decide what to do to improve their life in the system that currently exists.
  - micromacrofoot 3y ago