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> They obscure in order to secure? Interesting strategy. I mean we do it all the time. The US government has nuclear submarines so no one knows where they are

> They obscure in order to secure? Interesting strategy. I mean we do it all the time. The US government has nuclear submarines so no one knows where they are in the world. We hide things all the time to keep them from others. This is a practice that practically everyone does.

nailer 3y ago
There is something that has always felt off about “security through obscurity is no security at all”. There is no reason to give a malicious actor a guide to your operations.
Y_Y 3y ago
> This is a practice that practically everyone does. I don't find that a strong argument. I doesn't sound true, but even if it were it wouldn't make it a good idea. Furthermore, there is a difference between hiding a detail (submarine location) and hiding a process (the fact that there are submarines, that they have ICBMs, that they slink around waiting to avenge).
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  So, in this case, the process would be the existence of customs checks. The hidden detail might be "we've got an informant in the smugglers' organization".
  - Y_Y 3y ago
    Sure! And it's a matter for debate, but I would draw the line somewhere between what kinds of customs checks there are (e.g. we scan everything leaving a foreign vessel with an MRI and 10% at random with a mass spectrometer) and something covert and sensitive like an informant.
- lucianbr 3y ago
  Isn't it well known for example that banks have some rules or algorithms that flag potentially illegal activity, and those rules are secret? Revolut just tells you your transaction is suspect and it will take more time to go through, or just tells you you are suspect, and your account is being closed. They don't tell you what the rules are and which one you broke. Or if Google thinks you are cheating on ads somehow, they just ban you with no information. Intentionally, so you can't construct a cheat that avoids the cheat detection algorithms. This has been discussed at nauseam, and you're saying it doesn't sound true. More importantly, what exactly do you think "secret" in "secret service" means? Or "classified" information? Are you actually arguing that these things don't exist? Do you think while the location of secret agents is a secret, the hiring rules and the training and the infiltration strategies are public? Go try to find them.

nailer 3y ago

There is something that has always felt off about “security through obscurity is no security at all”. There is no reason to give a malicious actor a guide to your operations.

Y_Y 3y ago

> This is a practice that practically everyone does. I don't find that a strong argument. I doesn't sound true, but even if it were it wouldn't make it a good idea. Furthermore, there is a difference between hiding a detail (submarine location) and hiding a process (the fact that there are submarines, that they have ICBMs, that they slink around waiting to avenge).

ceejayoz 3y ago
So, in this case, the process would be the existence of customs checks. The hidden detail might be "we've got an informant in the smugglers' organization".
- Y_Y 3y ago
  Sure! And it's a matter for debate, but I would draw the line somewhere between what kinds of customs checks there are (e.g. we scan everything leaving a foreign vessel with an MRI and 10% at random with a mass spectrometer) and something covert and sensitive like an informant.
lucianbr 3y ago
Isn't it well known for example that banks have some rules or algorithms that flag potentially illegal activity, and those rules are secret? Revolut just tells you your transaction is suspect and it will take more time to go through, or just tells you you are suspect, and your account is being closed. They don't tell you what the rules are and which one you broke. Or if Google thinks you are cheating on ads somehow, they just ban you with no information. Intentionally, so you can't construct a cheat that avoids the cheat detection algorithms. This has been discussed at nauseam, and you're saying it doesn't sound true. More importantly, what exactly do you think "secret" in "secret service" means? Or "classified" information? Are you actually arguing that these things don't exist? Do you think while the location of secret agents is a secret, the hiring rules and the training and the infiltration strategies are public? Go try to find them.