4 ms·

If the law forbids you from approaching, staying where you are would be fine wouldn't it?

by jojobas 3y ago

wombatpm 3y ago
Am I allowed to stand my ground with deadly force in such a scenario?
- bagels 3y ago
  No, you must retreat to your designated free speech zone.
- Thorrez 3y ago
  What does that mean?
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    He thinks he can outdraw the cops.
    - ang_cire 3y ago
      Most people competent with a gun can. The requirements for firearms practice (and especially draw-and-fire drills) for cops are pretty minimal across the board. Your average 3-gun or USPSA competitors (who admittedly train much more than a bench shooter probably does) likely spend 30x more hours per year training than a cop does. Here's a per-state breakdown of police training requirements. https://www.apexofficer.com/police-training-requirements https://www.apexofficer.com/police-training-requirements Most of them require 20 hours or less PER YEAR, and that is not just firearms training, but total training across e.g. deescalation, driving, EMT, less-than-lethal force, crowd control, etc. Several of them specify that the firearms training is only 2 hours. Most hobby shooters can knock out 12 hours of dedicated firearms training in a month or 2 of weekend range days, so 6x what a cop might have to do in 12 months. Outdrawing the cops isn't the issue, outnumbering them is. Unless you've also got 300+ buddies you can call for support, you're going to lose in the end.
      - pixl97 3y ago
        ><Outdrawing the cops isn't the issue, outnumbering them is. The old saying when running from the cops goes > "You can beat Mopar, but you can't beat Motorola"
      - lazyasciiart 3y ago
        Here's a breakdown of the civilian training requirements: --- end requirements. It's not exactly relevant that some people spend personal time shooting as a hobby, if you're not willing to admit that some of those people are cops.
        ang_cire 3y ago
        > a breakdown of the civilian training requirements Which is why I specified: > most people competent with a gun Most civilians are not people competent with a gun. It is very relevant that hobby shooters can easily far outpace police in their weapon competency with just a casual amount of shooting practice (hell, most ranges give you a 2-hour block of time, so even one range day a YEAR could put you even with some of these departments). Whether some cops are also hobby shooters is irrelevant to the complete lack of reasonable training requirements at a policy level before we turn cops loose on the streets with firearms.
- simiones 3y ago
  Using deadly force against police officers in the middle of doing their duty is a recipe for being beaten and then murdered, even if you were technically within your legal rights to do so.
- Thorrez 3y ago
  I thought you can only use deadly force if you fear for your life. A cop approaching you, or even physically grabbing you and moving you to a new location won't kill you.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    I don't know what you consider to be a credible threat to your life but those two examples make the top five for me. There is no one I will ever interact with that has a greater chance of ending my life than an on duty police officer. Not the least of which because a random civilian that kills me will for sure go to jail which can't be said for the cop. If a guy with the closest thing the real world has to a license to kill, who is doing something bad enough to warrant being recorded for later evidence, turns their attention to intimidate you or physically force you to stop — this is a person you believe yourself to be safe around?
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      Trying to apply "stand your ground" in such a situation almost certainly increases the odds that you will die. Look, I'm not condoning police violence or immunity. I'm just saying that, as a purely practical matter, if you fear for your life when you interact with police, trying to "stand your ground" does not make you safer. Quite the opposite.
    - bavell 3y ago
      > There is no one I will ever interact with that has a greater chance of ending my life than an on duty police officer. So why in the world would you "stand your ground" in this scenario?? Perhaps you posted in the wrong comment thread?
- TheCleric 3y ago
  As Breonna Taylor's boyfriend Kenneth Walker can tell you, it is not wise to do so.
renewiltord 3y ago
28 It is unlawful for a person, after receiving a 29 verbal warning not to approach from a person he or she knows or 30 reasonably should know is a first responder, who is engaged in 31 the lawful performance of a legal duty, to knowingly and 32 willfully violate such warning and approach or remain within 25 33 feet of the first responder with the intent to https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2024/184/BillText/er/HTML https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2024/184/BillText/er/H... Like the original comment said, it's "approach or remain"
- jojobas 3y ago
  That's the usual phrasing of trespass laws, and remain here means "remain after approaching". I can't see any judge siding with a cop following someone and requiring him to stay 25 feet away.
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    You’re overestimating judges. Even aside from the possibility of corruption, which has certainly happened before and will again, some judges are awful people or not very clever. Generally the minimum requirement to be a judge is to pass the bar and then get elected by people who don’t know anything about you. It usually helps to be a friend of cops. Here’s a judge who jailed a guy known for reporting on police misconduct under the excuse that he refused to become a sworn witness in the trial of a cop murderer - which he had nothing to do with, and was simply attending in the audience. https://therealnews.com/a-cop-watcher-attended-the-trial-of-a-corrupt-officer-the-judge-made-him-pay-for-it https://therealnews.com/a-cop-watcher-attended-the-trial-of-... (I think what they were trying was just kick him out of the courtroom; my understanding is that when someone is a (potential) witness testifying in a trial they are not allowed to attend)
    - jojobas 3y ago
      You can't legislate away corrupt judges. Also when one of the sides asks to question you as a witness and the judge proceeds to swear you in, you do just that and later complain, not start and argument there and then.
avs733 3y ago
you are expecting good faith from US police?

If the law forbids you from approaching, staying where you are would be fine wouldn't it?

wombatpm 3y ago

Am I allowed to stand my ground with deadly force in such a scenario?

bagels 3y ago
No, you must retreat to your designated free speech zone.
Thorrez 3y ago
What does that mean?
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  He thinks he can outdraw the cops.
  - ang_cire 3y ago
    Most people competent with a gun can. The requirements for firearms practice (and especially draw-and-fire drills) for cops are pretty minimal across the board. Your average 3-gun or USPSA competitors (who admittedly train much more than a bench shooter probably does) likely spend 30x more hours per year training than a cop does. Here's a per-state breakdown of police training requirements. https://www.apexofficer.com/police-training-requirements https://www.apexofficer.com/police-training-requirements Most of them require 20 hours or less PER YEAR, and that is not just firearms training, but total training across e.g. deescalation, driving, EMT, less-than-lethal force, crowd control, etc. Several of them specify that the firearms training is only 2 hours. Most hobby shooters can knock out 12 hours of dedicated firearms training in a month or 2 of weekend range days, so 6x what a cop might have to do in 12 months. Outdrawing the cops isn't the issue, outnumbering them is. Unless you've also got 300+ buddies you can call for support, you're going to lose in the end.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      ><Outdrawing the cops isn't the issue, outnumbering them is. The old saying when running from the cops goes > "You can beat Mopar, but you can't beat Motorola"
    - lazyasciiart 3y ago
      Here's a breakdown of the civilian training requirements: --- end requirements. It's not exactly relevant that some people spend personal time shooting as a hobby, if you're not willing to admit that some of those people are cops.
      - ang_cire 3y ago
        > a breakdown of the civilian training requirements Which is why I specified: > most people competent with a gun Most civilians are not people competent with a gun. It is very relevant that hobby shooters can easily far outpace police in their weapon competency with just a casual amount of shooting practice (hell, most ranges give you a 2-hour block of time, so even one range day a YEAR could put you even with some of these departments). Whether some cops are also hobby shooters is irrelevant to the complete lack of reasonable training requirements at a policy level before we turn cops loose on the streets with firearms.
simiones 3y ago
Using deadly force against police officers in the middle of doing their duty is a recipe for being beaten and then murdered, even if you were technically within your legal rights to do so.
Thorrez 3y ago
I thought you can only use deadly force if you fear for your life. A cop approaching you, or even physically grabbing you and moving you to a new location won't kill you.
- Spivak 3y ago
  I don't know what you consider to be a credible threat to your life but those two examples make the top five for me. There is no one I will ever interact with that has a greater chance of ending my life than an on duty police officer. Not the least of which because a random civilian that kills me will for sure go to jail which can't be said for the cop. If a guy with the closest thing the real world has to a license to kill, who is doing something bad enough to warrant being recorded for later evidence, turns their attention to intimidate you or physically force you to stop — this is a person you believe yourself to be safe around?
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    Trying to apply "stand your ground" in such a situation almost certainly increases the odds that you will die. Look, I'm not condoning police violence or immunity. I'm just saying that, as a purely practical matter, if you fear for your life when you interact with police, trying to "stand your ground" does not make you safer. Quite the opposite.
  - bavell 3y ago
    > There is no one I will ever interact with that has a greater chance of ending my life than an on duty police officer. So why in the world would you "stand your ground" in this scenario?? Perhaps you posted in the wrong comment thread?
TheCleric 3y ago
As Breonna Taylor's boyfriend Kenneth Walker can tell you, it is not wise to do so.

renewiltord 3y ago

28 It is unlawful for a person, after receiving a 29 verbal warning not to approach from a person he or she knows or 30 reasonably should know is a first responder, who is engaged in 31 the lawful performance of a legal duty, to knowingly and 32 willfully violate such warning and approach or remain within 25 33 feet of the first responder with the intent to https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2024/184/BillText/er/HTML https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2024/184/BillText/er/H... Like the original comment said, it's "approach or remain"

jojobas 3y ago
That's the usual phrasing of trespass laws, and remain here means "remain after approaching". I can't see any judge siding with a cop following someone and requiring him to stay 25 feet away.
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  You’re overestimating judges. Even aside from the possibility of corruption, which has certainly happened before and will again, some judges are awful people or not very clever. Generally the minimum requirement to be a judge is to pass the bar and then get elected by people who don’t know anything about you. It usually helps to be a friend of cops. Here’s a judge who jailed a guy known for reporting on police misconduct under the excuse that he refused to become a sworn witness in the trial of a cop murderer - which he had nothing to do with, and was simply attending in the audience. https://therealnews.com/a-cop-watcher-attended-the-trial-of-a-corrupt-officer-the-judge-made-him-pay-for-it https://therealnews.com/a-cop-watcher-attended-the-trial-of-... (I think what they were trying was just kick him out of the courtroom; my understanding is that when someone is a (potential) witness testifying in a trial they are not allowed to attend)
  - jojobas 3y ago
    You can't legislate away corrupt judges. Also when one of the sides asks to question you as a witness and the judge proceeds to swear you in, you do just that and later complain, not start and argument there and then.

avs733 3y ago

you are expecting good faith from US police?