7 ms·

Nathan Tolbert pushes the limitations of new games on old consoles

112 points by masterofsome 2y ago

stevenwoo 2y ago
That was a fun article, surprised there is a market for new games on emulators (or really old consoles from my reading).
- jsheard 2y ago
  It's not a huge market, in practical terms it makes more sense for retro-inspired games to use a modern engine with self-imposed constraints rather than targeting an actual retro platform, but some developers want to go that extra mile. Another example would be Goodboy Galaxy, an original GBA game which had a very successful Kickstarter and can be bought as a real working GBA cartridge if you want. https://www.goodboygalaxy.com https://www.goodboygalaxy.com
  - gauauu 2y ago
    Nathan Tolbert here (the developer in the article). It's true that it's not a huge market, but it's an interesting one. First, most of us involved are making these games because the old platforms themselves are what's interesting, so a modern engine just isn't any fun. So we're not remotely in tune with what's practical. But beyond that, the community of players and buyers in this community is very engaged and supportive, which makes it very different from other indie dev. Indie games for a lot of other platforms have a long tail... if you get noticed, you'll make good money. If not, you'll make almost nothing and it will be crickets. In NES development, you're guaranteed to have a number of people that are engaging with you and supporting your work. It's still rare to make enough money to really make it a well-paying job, but it's a lot of fun as a money-making hobby.
    - jsheard 2y ago
      Yeah I certainly get the appeal, it's analogous to the way people are still making new FPS games using the actual Doom or Quake engines rather than something modern set up to imitate them. Though that also brings its own practical problems when trying to ship a commercial product, so you've really got to be in it for the love of the old school.
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
    The Gameboy and GBA have seen a surprising number of new games in recent years. And I don’t mean stuff created in GB Studio (which is itself really awesome), but actual games written from scratch in C or assembly. They seem to be quite a popular couple of platforms to develop on even today. Personally, I tend to look out more the indie Mega Drive releases but I really love the fact that people are still developing for these platforms.
    - jsheard 2y ago
      It's not a game but I'll take any opportunity to plug Overdrive 2 for the Mega Drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWVmPtr9O0g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWVmPtr9O0g That system has no business producing any kind of 3D graphics but they did it anyway.
      - hnlmorg 2y ago
        Yeah seen that before. It’s definitely impressive but it’s worth noting that there are a few 3D games for the Mega Drive. Albeit games like Virtua Racing did have additional chips in the cartridge (I have a boxed copy of that cart sat behind me). The Master System had stereoscopic 3D games too. As did the Famicom. I have both of their respective 3D addons too. Missile Defence in 3D is pretty cool. Hard to believe it’s 30+ year old tech.
        pbj1968 2y ago
        Virtua Racer was the only game with an extra chip for 3D. Everything else on that system is running straight off a ROM.
        hnlmorg 2y ago
        For some reason I thought Sega had released other games with the SVP but you’re right Virtua Racing was the only one. I think maybe I got my wires crossed with Virtua Fighter 2, which did see a Mega Drive release but as a 2D fighter (the VSP port being cancelled - presumably because of the cost of the VSP).
  - doobiedowner 2y ago
    I see "pre-order" and "shipping winter '23"... :(
    - jsheard 2y ago
      The game is finished and can be bought in digital form already, but it seems the physical version got delayed by manufacturing issues unfortunately.
  - lbotos 2y ago
    Thanks for this rec -- just played the demo and it's great!
- VS1999 2y ago
  I was surprised to see kickstarter at 21k USD to produce new NES cartridges. That system is older than most people living in the US.
- doubled112 2y ago
  I had a blast playing through Alwa's Awakening for NES on an emulator handheld. Well worth a few bucks. https://eldenpixels.com/alwas-awakening-nes/ https://eldenpixels.com/alwas-awakening-nes/
theogravity 2y ago
There's the NESMaker community that creates NES games using a toolkit: https://www.thenew8bitheroes.com/ https://www.thenew8bitheroes.com/ Games that may be created with it (the NESMaker site links to it, but it's not clear if all games were made with it or not): https://theretroverse.com/play/ https://theretroverse.com/play/
BaculumMeumEst 2y ago
> One of my favorite games for the NES was Ninja Gaiden. > My kids helped design some of the characters, and they love to play it together, which makes it a lot of fun as a family. > My family (my wife and 4 kids) loves hanging out with neighbors at Morrissey Park in Champaign. Champaign has great parks, and we’re fortunate enough to have a neighborhood community that regularly gets together at the park in the evenings. I also volunteer with my local church and am learning to ride the unicycle. Dude has been winning at life nonstop.
- eru 2y ago
  You can replicate some of his winnings. Eg unicycles are really cheap, and it took me a few idle afternoons (about twenty years ago) to get going on the unicycle. Mind you, I didn't learn any tricks, just how to go forward and how to get on without holding onto anything. Getting a spouse and 4 kids is a bit more involved, but doable for most people with a bit of dedication.
  - galaxyofdoom 2y ago
    [dead]
  - ativzzz 2y ago
    > Getting a spouse and 4 kids is a bit more involved Raising 4 kids without community support is extremely challenging - the church involvement here is more crucial than you think
    - BaculumMeumEst 2y ago
      Exactly right. I had the full quote for a reason.
    - eru 2y ago
      Agreed. I just stopped commenting on the code point by point after a while. Church (or other community) involvement is also people can decide to get into. Whether you're religious or not, though I admit being a-religious would make it a bigger compromise.
waltbosz 2y ago
I could see how writing code a low power console could be fun. I enjoy optimizing code just for the fun of the exercise. Also, I believe Atari carts could be written with standard off the shelf EEPROM hardware. My dad told stories of trading floppy disks full of ROM dumps through the inner office mail system with work friends, and then burning the them to carts.
sdenton4 2y ago
So... Is anyone writing a JavaScript to GameBoy assembly transpiler?
qooiii2 2y ago
I've done a bit of NES programming and really enjoy trying to cram stuff into such a tiny system. One benefit of developing games for these old systems is that they are not moving targets. For hobby programming, you probably don't want to keep testing and recompiling old stuff to keep up with OS updates. Even better, you'll have a small army of emulator developers making sure your games will work forever on every new platform. That includes browsers, since there are Javascript emulators for many systems. If your games are particularly tricky to emulate, that's no problem. They will probably be added to everyone's test suites.

112 points by masterofsome 2y ago

That was a fun article, surprised there is a market for new games on emulators (or really old consoles from my reading).

jsheard 2y ago
It's not a huge market, in practical terms it makes more sense for retro-inspired games to use a modern engine with self-imposed constraints rather than targeting an actual retro platform, but some developers want to go that extra mile. Another example would be Goodboy Galaxy, an original GBA game which had a very successful Kickstarter and can be bought as a real working GBA cartridge if you want. https://www.goodboygalaxy.com https://www.goodboygalaxy.com
- gauauu 2y ago
  Nathan Tolbert here (the developer in the article). It's true that it's not a huge market, but it's an interesting one. First, most of us involved are making these games because the old platforms themselves are what's interesting, so a modern engine just isn't any fun. So we're not remotely in tune with what's practical. But beyond that, the community of players and buyers in this community is very engaged and supportive, which makes it very different from other indie dev. Indie games for a lot of other platforms have a long tail... if you get noticed, you'll make good money. If not, you'll make almost nothing and it will be crickets. In NES development, you're guaranteed to have a number of people that are engaging with you and supporting your work. It's still rare to make enough money to really make it a well-paying job, but it's a lot of fun as a money-making hobby.
  - jsheard 2y ago
    Yeah I certainly get the appeal, it's analogous to the way people are still making new FPS games using the actual Doom or Quake engines rather than something modern set up to imitate them. Though that also brings its own practical problems when trying to ship a commercial product, so you've really got to be in it for the love of the old school.
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  The Gameboy and GBA have seen a surprising number of new games in recent years. And I don’t mean stuff created in GB Studio (which is itself really awesome), but actual games written from scratch in C or assembly. They seem to be quite a popular couple of platforms to develop on even today. Personally, I tend to look out more the indie Mega Drive releases but I really love the fact that people are still developing for these platforms.
  - jsheard 2y ago
    It's not a game but I'll take any opportunity to plug Overdrive 2 for the Mega Drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWVmPtr9O0g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWVmPtr9O0g That system has no business producing any kind of 3D graphics but they did it anyway.
    - hnlmorg 2y ago
      Yeah seen that before. It’s definitely impressive but it’s worth noting that there are a few 3D games for the Mega Drive. Albeit games like Virtua Racing did have additional chips in the cartridge (I have a boxed copy of that cart sat behind me). The Master System had stereoscopic 3D games too. As did the Famicom. I have both of their respective 3D addons too. Missile Defence in 3D is pretty cool. Hard to believe it’s 30+ year old tech.
      - pbj1968 2y ago
        Virtua Racer was the only game with an extra chip for 3D. Everything else on that system is running straight off a ROM.
        hnlmorg 2y ago
        For some reason I thought Sega had released other games with the SVP but you’re right Virtua Racing was the only one. I think maybe I got my wires crossed with Virtua Fighter 2, which did see a Mega Drive release but as a 2D fighter (the VSP port being cancelled - presumably because of the cost of the VSP).
- doobiedowner 2y ago
  I see "pre-order" and "shipping winter '23"... :(
  - jsheard 2y ago
    The game is finished and can be bought in digital form already, but it seems the physical version got delayed by manufacturing issues unfortunately.
- lbotos 2y ago
  Thanks for this rec -- just played the demo and it's great!
VS1999 2y ago
I was surprised to see kickstarter at 21k USD to produce new NES cartridges. That system is older than most people living in the US.
doubled112 2y ago
I had a blast playing through Alwa's Awakening for NES on an emulator handheld. Well worth a few bucks. https://eldenpixels.com/alwas-awakening-nes/ https://eldenpixels.com/alwas-awakening-nes/

theogravity 2y ago

There's the NESMaker community that creates NES games using a toolkit: https://www.thenew8bitheroes.com/ https://www.thenew8bitheroes.com/ Games that may be created with it (the NESMaker site links to it, but it's not clear if all games were made with it or not): https://theretroverse.com/play/ https://theretroverse.com/play/

BaculumMeumEst 2y ago

> One of my favorite games for the NES was Ninja Gaiden. > My kids helped design some of the characters, and they love to play it together, which makes it a lot of fun as a family. > My family (my wife and 4 kids) loves hanging out with neighbors at Morrissey Park in Champaign. Champaign has great parks, and we’re fortunate enough to have a neighborhood community that regularly gets together at the park in the evenings. I also volunteer with my local church and am learning to ride the unicycle. Dude has been winning at life nonstop.

eru 2y ago
You can replicate some of his winnings. Eg unicycles are really cheap, and it took me a few idle afternoons (about twenty years ago) to get going on the unicycle. Mind you, I didn't learn any tricks, just how to go forward and how to get on without holding onto anything. Getting a spouse and 4 kids is a bit more involved, but doable for most people with a bit of dedication.
- galaxyofdoom 2y ago
  [dead]
- ativzzz 2y ago
  > Getting a spouse and 4 kids is a bit more involved Raising 4 kids without community support is extremely challenging - the church involvement here is more crucial than you think
  - BaculumMeumEst 2y ago
    Exactly right. I had the full quote for a reason.
  - eru 2y ago
    Agreed. I just stopped commenting on the code point by point after a while. Church (or other community) involvement is also people can decide to get into. Whether you're religious or not, though I admit being a-religious would make it a bigger compromise.

waltbosz 2y ago

I could see how writing code a low power console could be fun. I enjoy optimizing code just for the fun of the exercise. Also, I believe Atari carts could be written with standard off the shelf EEPROM hardware. My dad told stories of trading floppy disks full of ROM dumps through the inner office mail system with work friends, and then burning the them to carts.

sdenton4 2y ago

So... Is anyone writing a JavaScript to GameBoy assembly transpiler?

qooiii2 2y ago

I've done a bit of NES programming and really enjoy trying to cram stuff into such a tiny system. One benefit of developing games for these old systems is that they are not moving targets. For hobby programming, you probably don't want to keep testing and recompiling old stuff to keep up with OS updates. Even better, you'll have a small army of emulator developers making sure your games will work forever on every new platform. That includes browsers, since there are Javascript emulators for many systems. If your games are particularly tricky to emulate, that's no problem. They will probably be added to everyone's test suites.