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It is incredible that those most vehemently arguing media companies are "anti-free speech" seem to be the most anti-free speech of all. Even free speech absolu

It is incredible that those most vehemently arguing media companies are "anti-free speech" seem to be the most anti-free speech of all. Even free speech absolutists.

jcranmer 2y ago
My expectation is that most people who call themselves "free speech absolutists" are people who are primarily concerned with the effects of people censoring their own speech due to fear of audience reaction--that is, their absolutism in free speech is mostly centered on protecting speakers from the consequences of their speech, and they are almost invariably willing to trample on the right of others to speak in goal of this protection.
klyrs 2y ago
Free speech absolutism is a meme. The so-called absolutists are eager to fight to protect nazis' right to speak; but when they run places like parler, gab, and twitter, they cannot help but censor people who disagree with nazis. For example, downvoting is often equated with censorship. But when I call free speech absolutists nazis, I get downvoted! So, I persist, to highlight the hypocrisy if nothing else.
- Spivak 2y ago
  Free speech absolutism is an interesting bag because it necessarily implies that people also have an unlimited right to censor others as that is also a form of speech. So many issues can be broken down along the freedom vs liberty axis and this is one of them. One group wants the fewest restrictions to be imposed, freedom from, and one group believes that freedom of speech is best protected when the people who want to speak are able, freedom to, and that necessarily implies some rules. If you're someone who has argued for the principle of free speech that exists beyond 1A you're likely a freedom to kind of person. So the question is whether speech is in issue like chess or driving where rules make the experience better for everyone or whether it's like free association or movement where it's better for everyone if the government has no say in the matter. I'm of the belief that it's the former but I recognize that the opposing view is also reasonable and has strong arguments supporting it.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > it necessarily implies that people also have an unlimited right to censor others as that is also a form of speech The latter is freedom of assembly. If Twitter were banned from taking down my tweets, it isn't infringing on their freedom of speech. (Nor is it compelling their speech.) It's forcing them to associate with me. Free-speech absolutists tend to ignore the inherent conflict between the freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. (There also tends to be nitpicking over what counts as speech, as most simply exemplified by the question of bots and spam.)
    - pcwalton 2y ago
      You mean freedom of association, right? Freedom of assembly is the right to gather; freedom of association is the right to choose the people you associate with.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Freedom of assembly is the right to gather; freedom of association is the right to choose the people you associate with Technically, yes. They’re used interchangeably in American English, with freedom of association having a labour connotation [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly
DonHopkins 2y ago
Stewart Lee's impression of Ricky Gervais ("the Boris Johnson of stand up") literally saying what cannot be said because of political correctness and the woke brigade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIHY5cFXqQk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIHY5cFXqQk Watch the whole thing -- it's worth it! ;)
- pixxel 2y ago
  You must be in your twenties or early thirties.
  - DonHopkins 2y ago
    Why would you incorrectly guess that? Or are you literally unable to say? But I'll certainly take the flattery! Thanks. Keep going...
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    Slightly odd claim, given that Lee has been active for over 30 years; if anything I'd see being a Stewart Lee fan as being a mild GenX indicator. Also, er, _totally irrelevant_; who cares what age they are?

It is incredible that those most vehemently arguing media companies are "anti-free speech" seem to be the most anti-free speech of all. Even free speech absolutists.

jcranmer 2y ago

My expectation is that most people who call themselves "free speech absolutists" are people who are primarily concerned with the effects of people censoring their own speech due to fear of audience reaction--that is, their absolutism in free speech is mostly centered on protecting speakers from the consequences of their speech, and they are almost invariably willing to trample on the right of others to speak in goal of this protection.

klyrs 2y ago

Free speech absolutism is a meme. The so-called absolutists are eager to fight to protect nazis' right to speak; but when they run places like parler, gab, and twitter, they cannot help but censor people who disagree with nazis. For example, downvoting is often equated with censorship. But when I call free speech absolutists nazis, I get downvoted! So, I persist, to highlight the hypocrisy if nothing else.

Spivak 2y ago
Free speech absolutism is an interesting bag because it necessarily implies that people also have an unlimited right to censor others as that is also a form of speech. So many issues can be broken down along the freedom vs liberty axis and this is one of them. One group wants the fewest restrictions to be imposed, freedom from, and one group believes that freedom of speech is best protected when the people who want to speak are able, freedom to, and that necessarily implies some rules. If you're someone who has argued for the principle of free speech that exists beyond 1A you're likely a freedom to kind of person. So the question is whether speech is in issue like chess or driving where rules make the experience better for everyone or whether it's like free association or movement where it's better for everyone if the government has no say in the matter. I'm of the belief that it's the former but I recognize that the opposing view is also reasonable and has strong arguments supporting it.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > it necessarily implies that people also have an unlimited right to censor others as that is also a form of speech The latter is freedom of assembly. If Twitter were banned from taking down my tweets, it isn't infringing on their freedom of speech. (Nor is it compelling their speech.) It's forcing them to associate with me. Free-speech absolutists tend to ignore the inherent conflict between the freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. (There also tends to be nitpicking over what counts as speech, as most simply exemplified by the question of bots and spam.)
  - pcwalton 2y ago
    You mean freedom of association, right? Freedom of assembly is the right to gather; freedom of association is the right to choose the people you associate with.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Freedom of assembly is the right to gather; freedom of association is the right to choose the people you associate with Technically, yes. They’re used interchangeably in American English, with freedom of association having a labour connotation [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly

DonHopkins 2y ago

Stewart Lee's impression of Ricky Gervais ("the Boris Johnson of stand up") literally saying what cannot be said because of political correctness and the woke brigade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIHY5cFXqQk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIHY5cFXqQk Watch the whole thing -- it's worth it! ;)

pixxel 2y ago
You must be in your twenties or early thirties.
- DonHopkins 2y ago
  Why would you incorrectly guess that? Or are you literally unable to say? But I'll certainly take the flattery! Thanks. Keep going...
- rsynnott 2y ago
  Slightly odd claim, given that Lee has been active for over 30 years; if anything I'd see being a Stewart Lee fan as being a mild GenX indicator. Also, er, _totally irrelevant_; who cares what age they are?