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You didn't actually answer the question. I'll agree with both points (though I take a bit of issue with the second with some of the wording), but you didn't sug

You didn't actually answer the question. I'll agree with both points (though I take a bit of issue with the second with some of the wording), but you didn't suggest any short term solutions. ETA: I want to clarify, these people will have violence inflicted on them if they're not collecting money. If Kitboga is wasting their time, they're not collecting money. If they just get a bad shuffle and don't get anyone gullible for a few days, they're also not collecting money. You seem to be purposefully ignoring this.

bumby 3y ago
I think you are conflating two questions. 1) How do we not make things worse? 2) How do we solve the problem? My whole point has been regarding #1. There is some probability that the scammers get "a bad shuffle" and get abused. However, if you deliberately waste their time, you have just increased that probability to 100%. I'm claiming that makes things worse. If your new question is how do we solve the human trafficking problem that undergirds this industry, I'm afraid I don't think there's "this one hack" that can solve that. But at least we don't have to make things worse in the short term.
- tombert 3y ago
  Ok, but this is the point that I think we disagree; I would think that the "bad shuffle" is what we want? I think you would agree that grandmother spending her entire retirement on Google Play cards is a bad thing. Deliberately wasting their time guarantees that at least that scammer is not extracting money from some random person. I'm having trouble seeing how that's a bad thing; all these scambaiters are doing is kind of forcing the "bad shuffle". I think I must be misunderstanding because it genuinely seems to be that you're suggesting that the best course of action is to just let people get scammed for hundreds of thousands of dollars until there is a systemic solution. A systemic solution can take years, maybe decades.
  - bumby 3y ago
    >I think I must be misunderstanding It reads that we are speaking past each other and I think the misunderstanding comes from your consistent reframing as the choice between two bad outcomes. I've already commented that dichotomous thinking isn't helpful. So, again, I don't think there are only two options: a) let someone get scammed and b) let someone get abused. I think that kind of thinking is incompatible with finding good solutions. But...since you keep framing it that way...I would say, between the two, allowing someone to lose money is a better outcome than making it likely that someone will be beaten while being imprisoned against their will. In a (falsely) dichotomously framed argument, there is a clear hierarchy. Physical safety trumps money. "My kingdom for a horse" and all that. I think the best option for the person in TFA is to get proactively involved in providing systemic solutions. If they aren't up for that, the next best option is to ignore the calls. I wouldn't even put the "scam the scammers" in the same discussion because, as we'd talked about ad nauseam, it's not really a solution and probably antithetical to a solution because it potentially makes things worse. Again, at the very least, we can not make things worse. You seem to be advocating for the "making things worse" choice because you've constrained yourself to only two options and you already decided that one is unacceptable.
    - tombert 3y ago
      > But...since you keep framing it that way...I would say, between the two, allowing someone to lose money is a better outcome than making it likely that someone will be beaten while being imprisoned against their will. Ok, so there's actually a word for that, it's called "extortion". It's generally frowned upon. You have repeated that it's a "false dichotomy" like seven times now, but you haven't actually suggested a third solution to the problem. "Get involved in providing systemic solutions" is absurd; what the hell does that even mean? I vote for politicians that might do something about it? I write a letter to the UN? Ok, so that's great, maybe I make a change.org petition while I'm at it. Maybe in twenty years something will actually get done. You also have not actually explained how things are "being made worse" by these scambaiters. I would argue that reducing extortion is good, and outweighs the risk of the traffic victims being abused. It's very sad, I don't like them being abused, but what you're suggesting is borderline-ludacris, short-sighted, and doesn't actually make any sense if taken to its logical extreme.

bumby 3y ago

I think you are conflating two questions. 1) How do we not make things worse? 2) How do we solve the problem? My whole point has been regarding #1. There is some probability that the scammers get "a bad shuffle" and get abused. However, if you deliberately waste their time, you have just increased that probability to 100%. I'm claiming that makes things worse. If your new question is how do we solve the human trafficking problem that undergirds this industry, I'm afraid I don't think there's "this one hack" that can solve that. But at least we don't have to make things worse in the short term.

tombert 3y ago
Ok, but this is the point that I think we disagree; I would think that the "bad shuffle" is what we want? I think you would agree that grandmother spending her entire retirement on Google Play cards is a bad thing. Deliberately wasting their time guarantees that at least that scammer is not extracting money from some random person. I'm having trouble seeing how that's a bad thing; all these scambaiters are doing is kind of forcing the "bad shuffle". I think I must be misunderstanding because it genuinely seems to be that you're suggesting that the best course of action is to just let people get scammed for hundreds of thousands of dollars until there is a systemic solution. A systemic solution can take years, maybe decades.
- bumby 3y ago
  >I think I must be misunderstanding It reads that we are speaking past each other and I think the misunderstanding comes from your consistent reframing as the choice between two bad outcomes. I've already commented that dichotomous thinking isn't helpful. So, again, I don't think there are only two options: a) let someone get scammed and b) let someone get abused. I think that kind of thinking is incompatible with finding good solutions. But...since you keep framing it that way...I would say, between the two, allowing someone to lose money is a better outcome than making it likely that someone will be beaten while being imprisoned against their will. In a (falsely) dichotomously framed argument, there is a clear hierarchy. Physical safety trumps money. "My kingdom for a horse" and all that. I think the best option for the person in TFA is to get proactively involved in providing systemic solutions. If they aren't up for that, the next best option is to ignore the calls. I wouldn't even put the "scam the scammers" in the same discussion because, as we'd talked about ad nauseam, it's not really a solution and probably antithetical to a solution because it potentially makes things worse. Again, at the very least, we can not make things worse. You seem to be advocating for the "making things worse" choice because you've constrained yourself to only two options and you already decided that one is unacceptable.
  - tombert 3y ago
    > But...since you keep framing it that way...I would say, between the two, allowing someone to lose money is a better outcome than making it likely that someone will be beaten while being imprisoned against their will. Ok, so there's actually a word for that, it's called "extortion". It's generally frowned upon. You have repeated that it's a "false dichotomy" like seven times now, but you haven't actually suggested a third solution to the problem. "Get involved in providing systemic solutions" is absurd; what the hell does that even mean? I vote for politicians that might do something about it? I write a letter to the UN? Ok, so that's great, maybe I make a change.org petition while I'm at it. Maybe in twenty years something will actually get done. You also have not actually explained how things are "being made worse" by these scambaiters. I would argue that reducing extortion is good, and outweighs the risk of the traffic victims being abused. It's very sad, I don't like them being abused, but what you're suggesting is borderline-ludacris, short-sighted, and doesn't actually make any sense if taken to its logical extreme.