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This is displaying dichotomous thinking. I don’t think the only choices are a) waste their time with vigilante justice and let them be beaten/raped/killed and b

by bumby 3y ago

This is displaying dichotomous thinking. I don’t think the only choices are a) waste their time with vigilante justice and let them be beaten/raped/killed and b) allow the extortion and scamming to continue by capitulating.

igetspam 3y ago
What's your proposed third choice?
- bumby 3y ago
  I've already stated it elsewhere in this thread, but there are diplomatic, regulatory, and educational avenues that would probably be more impactful than a few dudes taking it upon themselves. In my mind, it's not unlike the people who half-block a traffic lane when there's a merge upcoming. In their mind, I'm sure they think they're doing the Lord's work, and it scratches their itch for a sense of justice in an unjust world. In reality, it slows everyone down and makes the system worse. Giving into our human biases for seeking justice can often lead to worse outcomes.
chucksta 3y ago
It's a dichotomous question
- bumby 3y ago
  Sorry, but it really isn't. "How do I handle a scam phone call?" has a number of options, regardless if you're viewing it as an individual or a society.
  - chucksta 3y ago
    Your quote is wrong, the question is "does your opinion change". Typical answers would be yes or no. What does dichotomy mean?
    - bumby 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - bumby 3y ago
      I'll try to be more generous with my description. When I brought up dich0timous thinking, it was not in response to "no, that wouldn't change my mind" but rather "the only options are to capitulate to the scam or fight it in a way that puts someone else at risk". There's a strange correlation between pedantry and dichotomous thinking in resarch literature. They are also over-indexed in STEM fields, so I guess it shouldn't be surprising when it's commonly encountered on this forum.
tombert 3y ago
I am very open to something else, I just don't know what it is. Obviously this is really the job of the authorities to deal with, but they are either unable or unwilling to fix the problem. What are you actually suggesting here? ETA: I should point out that I really don't think what Kitboga does counts as "vigilantism" in the classic sense. He's not going out to directly do anything outside of wasting people's time and reporting bank account numbers to relevant authorities.
- bumby 3y ago
  >What are you actually suggesting here? I'm just suggesting that the actions within the article make the situation worse rather than better. As you alluded to, there are other, more fruitful ways to attack this problem, usually related to systemic changes. I do think his actions count as vigilantism since that term is applied to actions explicitly intended to prevent crimes. From TFA "those who aim to waste scammers' time otherwise spent ripping off innocent victims."
  - tombert 3y ago
    Sure, no argument with this: it would way better to get authorities involved. I agree with your sibling comment that it would be probably fruitful to increase some of the regulations around crypto. In fact that would probably help with a lot of domestic crimes as well... But just to kind of play devil's advocate; lets suppose we educate people about this stuff, and it's extremely successful, no grandpa is selling his house to buy Google Play cards because we were so good at communication. Wouldn't those same people get beaten (or worse) in the same way that you're suggesting with Kitboga?
    - bumby 3y ago
      >Wouldn't those same people get beaten (or worse) in the same way that you're suggesting with Kitboga? I think this underscores the importance of looking at this systemically. It's easy to think this is just a story about phone scams. Looking at the bigger picture, though, it's really about human trafficking. To directly answer your question, if we were able to solve the root human trafficking issue that allows these criminal industries to be profitable, then we'd prevent those beatings in the first place. In fact, some people running these organizations are already looking at using AI to run the scams rather than humans. Under that scenario, your educational outreach would be a huge success, but it does require working at the root problem first.

by bumby 3y ago

igetspam 3y ago

What's your proposed third choice?

bumby 3y ago
I've already stated it elsewhere in this thread, but there are diplomatic, regulatory, and educational avenues that would probably be more impactful than a few dudes taking it upon themselves. In my mind, it's not unlike the people who half-block a traffic lane when there's a merge upcoming. In their mind, I'm sure they think they're doing the Lord's work, and it scratches their itch for a sense of justice in an unjust world. In reality, it slows everyone down and makes the system worse. Giving into our human biases for seeking justice can often lead to worse outcomes.

chucksta 3y ago

It's a dichotomous question

bumby 3y ago
Sorry, but it really isn't. "How do I handle a scam phone call?" has a number of options, regardless if you're viewing it as an individual or a society.
- chucksta 3y ago
  Your quote is wrong, the question is "does your opinion change". Typical answers would be yes or no. What does dichotomy mean?
  - bumby 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - bumby 3y ago
    I'll try to be more generous with my description. When I brought up dich0timous thinking, it was not in response to "no, that wouldn't change my mind" but rather "the only options are to capitulate to the scam or fight it in a way that puts someone else at risk". There's a strange correlation between pedantry and dichotomous thinking in resarch literature. They are also over-indexed in STEM fields, so I guess it shouldn't be surprising when it's commonly encountered on this forum.

tombert 3y ago

I am very open to something else, I just don't know what it is. Obviously this is really the job of the authorities to deal with, but they are either unable or unwilling to fix the problem. What are you actually suggesting here? ETA: I should point out that I really don't think what Kitboga does counts as "vigilantism" in the classic sense. He's not going out to directly do anything outside of wasting people's time and reporting bank account numbers to relevant authorities.

bumby 3y ago
>What are you actually suggesting here? I'm just suggesting that the actions within the article make the situation worse rather than better. As you alluded to, there are other, more fruitful ways to attack this problem, usually related to systemic changes. I do think his actions count as vigilantism since that term is applied to actions explicitly intended to prevent crimes. From TFA "those who aim to waste scammers' time otherwise spent ripping off innocent victims."
- tombert 3y ago
  Sure, no argument with this: it would way better to get authorities involved. I agree with your sibling comment that it would be probably fruitful to increase some of the regulations around crypto. In fact that would probably help with a lot of domestic crimes as well... But just to kind of play devil's advocate; lets suppose we educate people about this stuff, and it's extremely successful, no grandpa is selling his house to buy Google Play cards because we were so good at communication. Wouldn't those same people get beaten (or worse) in the same way that you're suggesting with Kitboga?
  - bumby 3y ago
    >Wouldn't those same people get beaten (or worse) in the same way that you're suggesting with Kitboga? I think this underscores the importance of looking at this systemically. It's easy to think this is just a story about phone scams. Looking at the bigger picture, though, it's really about human trafficking. To directly answer your question, if we were able to solve the root human trafficking issue that allows these criminal industries to be profitable, then we'd prevent those beatings in the first place. In fact, some people running these organizations are already looking at using AI to run the scams rather than humans. Under that scenario, your educational outreach would be a huge success, but it does require working at the root problem first.