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This isn't exactly a new concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voith_Schneider_Propeller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voith_Schneider_Propeller Tugboats use

This isn't exactly a new concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voith_Schneider_Propeller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voith_Schneider_Propeller Tugboats use them.

agos 3y ago
individual blade control seems like a pretty big difference
- wtallis 3y ago
  It's a big difference in implementation, but I'm not seeing where they state whether it achieves any significant improvement in performance over existing cyclorotor designs like Voith Schneider. I think when they compare against "conventional shaftline configurations" they are talking about ordinary screw props.
  - mlhpdx 3y ago
    I can see the potential for dramatic improvements in efficiency and control using individual blade tuning, particularly during maneuvering, to increase or decrease turbulence depending on the desired effect. It sounds like a really fun control system problem.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > I'm not seeing where they state whether it achieves any significant improvement in performance over existing cyclorotor designs like Voith Schneider Traditional V-S loses a tonne of efficiency in the gearbox. It's less efficient than conventional shaftline. So if this is more efficient than the latter, it stands that it's moreso than the former. (Agree that I'd like more technical details.)
Cieric 3y ago
That appears to have already been mentioned in the article itself. Reading over it it seems that the improvement here is fully independent control of all the blades. From what I can see in diagrams of the Voith Schneider Propeller it seems to be a single linkage to all the blades that cause them to all be at the same angle depending on their current position in the rotation. If I'm getting this all wrong please someone correct me, I am interested in learning what the differences are.
- dylan604 3y ago
  > That appears to have already been mentioned in the article itself. I like how you let it go that it was the opening sentence.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    There rarely is any useful information in opening sentence or paragraph of a typical article, so as with banner blindness, it's excusable to read the article and still miss it.
    - kayodelycaon 3y ago
      Yeah. That's an oops on my part. The "first paragraph" isn't part of the article text. It's styled as a quote, summary, or caption. Safari's reader view displays it as such. (Gray sub-heading) I tend to skip those because they are often misleading.
- all2 3y ago
  The linkage system in helicopters was called a "swash plate", a rather ingenious method of controlling pitch of rotating elements.
supportengineer 3y ago
They had these for radio-controlled boats in the early 1990's.
pixelesque 3y ago
And many smaller ferries.
godelski 3y ago
If you simplify anything enough it isn't new. If we required everything to be done in leaps and bounds, we'd never get anything done. Better to re-frame this as "looks to be an improvement on Voith Schneider Propellers". We can recognize the history while recognizing improvements. Progress is made by continual small steps, not giant leaps. If you see giant leaps, it is generally because you just aren't familiar with the topic enough (they do happen, but they are quite rare). Over trivializing improvements and dismissing them because they are abstractly similar only stops the world from moving forward. To reference a clique (something everyone can recite but something nobody knows): "the devil is in the details." If you read the article, they say that the propeller decrease energy consumption by 22% from conventional shaftline (the video says "up to 25%" though...), that seems like a pretty big win to me. And seems like something that you shouldn't so quickly dismiss. This kind of issue seems prominent around here and among engineers. Just remember how your work's merit relies so much on the details. What makes you think that this is any different for others? Why conclude that just because you understand something at an abstract level that you understand it at a nuanced level? Edit: don't use this comment as a reason to downvote them. If you actually like this message upvote them to make this more visible because you're probably frustrated with this issue too.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- tda 3y ago
  The article is to light on details to claim anything radical. The operating principal is the exact same principal as a Voith Schneider Propeller, but then with more actuators and less linkages. That too me could just as well be a cost saving thing. Especially as they compare it too "conventional shaftline", and not to a Voith Schneider (I think). Also Voith Schneider's are already available in a in an electric version (eVSP) for diesel-electric drives. Perhaps this new Dynafin is much more efficient than an eVSP because better tuned individual control optimised by AI and industry 4.0 allows for much better control. But it is equally possible that there is exactly zero advantage to this system and all we read is marketing BS. Hefty improvement claims without details are usually BS in my experience
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
michaelcampbell 3y ago
This intrigues me although I'm convinced almost anything that touches water is more expensive than I'm willing to pay for a hobby/pastime, but I went and looked up to see how these work. Neat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub563Yc3xls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub563Yc3xls

This isn't exactly a new concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voith_Schneider_Propeller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voith_Schneider_Propeller Tugboats use them.

agos 3y ago

individual blade control seems like a pretty big difference

wtallis 3y ago
It's a big difference in implementation, but I'm not seeing where they state whether it achieves any significant improvement in performance over existing cyclorotor designs like Voith Schneider. I think when they compare against "conventional shaftline configurations" they are talking about ordinary screw props.
- mlhpdx 3y ago
  I can see the potential for dramatic improvements in efficiency and control using individual blade tuning, particularly during maneuvering, to increase or decrease turbulence depending on the desired effect. It sounds like a really fun control system problem.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > I'm not seeing where they state whether it achieves any significant improvement in performance over existing cyclorotor designs like Voith Schneider Traditional V-S loses a tonne of efficiency in the gearbox. It's less efficient than conventional shaftline. So if this is more efficient than the latter, it stands that it's moreso than the former. (Agree that I'd like more technical details.)

Cieric 3y ago

That appears to have already been mentioned in the article itself. Reading over it it seems that the improvement here is fully independent control of all the blades. From what I can see in diagrams of the Voith Schneider Propeller it seems to be a single linkage to all the blades that cause them to all be at the same angle depending on their current position in the rotation. If I'm getting this all wrong please someone correct me, I am interested in learning what the differences are.

dylan604 3y ago
> That appears to have already been mentioned in the article itself. I like how you let it go that it was the opening sentence.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  There rarely is any useful information in opening sentence or paragraph of a typical article, so as with banner blindness, it's excusable to read the article and still miss it.
  - kayodelycaon 3y ago
    Yeah. That's an oops on my part. The "first paragraph" isn't part of the article text. It's styled as a quote, summary, or caption. Safari's reader view displays it as such. (Gray sub-heading) I tend to skip those because they are often misleading.
all2 3y ago
The linkage system in helicopters was called a "swash plate", a rather ingenious method of controlling pitch of rotating elements.

supportengineer 3y ago

They had these for radio-controlled boats in the early 1990's.

pixelesque 3y ago

And many smaller ferries.

godelski 3y ago

If you simplify anything enough it isn't new. If we required everything to be done in leaps and bounds, we'd never get anything done. Better to re-frame this as "looks to be an improvement on Voith Schneider Propellers". We can recognize the history while recognizing improvements. Progress is made by continual small steps, not giant leaps. If you see giant leaps, it is generally because you just aren't familiar with the topic enough (they do happen, but they are quite rare). Over trivializing improvements and dismissing them because they are abstractly similar only stops the world from moving forward. To reference a clique (something everyone can recite but something nobody knows): "the devil is in the details." If you read the article, they say that the propeller decrease energy consumption by 22% from conventional shaftline (the video says "up to 25%" though...), that seems like a pretty big win to me. And seems like something that you shouldn't so quickly dismiss. This kind of issue seems prominent around here and among engineers. Just remember how your work's merit relies so much on the details. What makes you think that this is any different for others? Why conclude that just because you understand something at an abstract level that you understand it at a nuanced level? Edit: don't use this comment as a reason to downvote them. If you actually like this message upvote them to make this more visible because you're probably frustrated with this issue too.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tda 3y ago
The article is to light on details to claim anything radical. The operating principal is the exact same principal as a Voith Schneider Propeller, but then with more actuators and less linkages. That too me could just as well be a cost saving thing. Especially as they compare it too "conventional shaftline", and not to a Voith Schneider (I think). Also Voith Schneider's are already available in a in an electric version (eVSP) for diesel-electric drives. Perhaps this new Dynafin is much more efficient than an eVSP because better tuned individual control optimised by AI and industry 4.0 allows for much better control. But it is equally possible that there is exactly zero advantage to this system and all we read is marketing BS. Hefty improvement claims without details are usually BS in my experience

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

michaelcampbell 3y ago

This intrigues me although I'm convinced almost anything that touches water is more expensive than I'm willing to pay for a hobby/pastime, but I went and looked up to see how these work. Neat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub563Yc3xls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub563Yc3xls