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I have to say honestly, the whole episode with NVidia's recent rise has left me quite demotivated about capitalism and the value of hard work. NVidia used to be

I have to say honestly, the whole episode with NVidia's recent rise has left me quite demotivated about capitalism and the value of hard work. NVidia used to be a second tier job from the perspective of software professionals. The folks that worked there worked hard but it was not harder than any other top or mid-tier software company. That these folks hit the jackpot is great for them but quite senseless from the perspective of "you get rewarded for your efforts" perspective. AI has been known to work and be important for many years. The reason NVidia is in the position it is, is more due to the work of OpenAI, which of course builds on the entire community's effort. I'm trying to rationalize so this is a genuine feeling and perhaps a question. How does one rationalize such wind-falls. I know about lottery tickets but the number of people that got a payoff on this one is vast. And yes, I'll admit I'm jealous.

ctvo 3y ago
> That these folks hit the jackpot is great for them but quite senseless from the perspective of "you get rewarded for your efforts" perspective. How is that senseless? Their efforts, in whatever way, contributed to the massive increase in the sale of the GPUs, right? And they were awarded for it. If it wasn't Nvidia, but a start-up that was grinding for 10 years before they did well (eg Figma) would you feel the same way? Dig into that.
- SilverBirch 3y ago
  The point is that the rewards are clear and enormous, but the actual responsibility is way more diffuse. There will be plenty of people working at Nvidia who were less competent and less hard working than the person doing an almost identical job at ARM or AMD or Intel. But their reward will likely be 2-10x what those other people get. The aggregate system seems to be efficient - capitalism has done a fairly good job at creating a successful innovative business environment, but the way it does that is just wild rewards predominantly for people who were in the right place at the right time. There are people who are at Nvidia who are genuinely responsible for the great stuff that Nvidia has done in the last few years. But they're going to be a minority of the people who get rewarded.
  - Jlagreen 2y ago
    [dead]
alephnerd 3y ago
> NVidia used to be a second tier job from the perspective of software professionals Since when? It was always a very popular choice for those truly interested in HPC and ML. I think the issue is there are a lot of people in the industry who actually don't care about the products they're building. If you're working on building something you like, it'll always be fun and worth it. > it was not harder than any other top or mid-tier software company What the hell is a "top" or "mid-tier" company. The kind of person who thinks like this is never going to make good money in this industry. If you are truly valuable, you will get a Google level salary anywhere. > The reason NVidia is in the position it is, is more due to the work of OpenAI, which of course builds on the entire community's effort They've been working on this problem for decades. Back when NLP was almost dead and Precision Medicine was a pipe dream, it was Nvidia that was helping maintain the ecosystem. > And yes, I'll admit I'm jealous You definetly are, but you also don't seem to have the right mentality for this industry. Being a generalist is useless. Being a domain expert the right application of technology in a specific industry is what gets you the big bucks. I don't need a sklearn script kiddie - I need an sklearn script kiddie who also knows how to apply ML to my specific business domain.
- htrp 3y ago
  > I don't need a sklearn script kiddie - I need an sklearn script kiddie who also knows how to apply ML to my specific business domain sounds like you need consultants ;-)
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  You should’ve seen the Twitter post some time back about ML engineers at “tier 1 companies” discovering what SVD was because of LoRA
Mahnahnohnah 3y ago
NVidia has been investing in Platform strategy for a long time. I have been reading nvidia research papers for a while, they probably invested a lot in their Omniverse and digital twin toolchain too. NVidia was also the first company to bring real time raytracing into the market. I don't think nivida was 'just' lucky. Even the intel ceo was super cooky a few month back when he stated that.
killingtime74 3y ago
Since when did the hardest jobs/putting in the most effort mean you were paid the most? If they were Software engineering would not even be in the top 100 hardest jobs....
- ttoinou 3y ago
  Being a good software engineer in a team is indeed among the top 10 hardest mental job out there
  - pxx 3y ago
    Lol what. Even adjacent jobs like hardware engineering are much harder and pay less. And there are so many more challenging mental jobs. Think ATC, think labwork, think academia in competitive fields, think sales, ...
    - ttoinou 2y ago
      Depends on how you define mental. Skills required in listed jobs are also social. Agreed on hardware engineering though !
  - tekla 3y ago
    JFC, I can't tell if this is serious or not.
superhuzza 3y ago
>How does one rationalize such wind-falls. By accepting that life isn't fair, and capitalism certainly isn't fair either. Working hard, and doing everything right, does not guarantee success. And when someone does have success, it's not necessarily to do with their actions. It can't really be rationalized. All you can do is maximize your chances of living the best life you can.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Just have to come to terms that whole stock market and tech stock specially are in essence lottery. And rather distanced from any reality. In few years the valuations might be entirely different...
overstay8930 3y ago
This has been Nvidia's play for over a decade. AMD was playing checkers with gamers and linux while Nvidia was playing chess with datacenter and actually putting out good software that made it all possible.
- mamonster 3y ago
  I mean its not like people who went to work at AMD during the last decade are poor peasants.
Infinitesimus 3y ago
1. Life isn't fair. The earlier you accept that, the better off you'll be. This unfairness is why you're here posting on hackernews and someone through no fault of theirs is starving trying to cross the Sahara into greener pastures. It cuts both ways. 2. Hard work rarely ever implies financial success. 3. "...second tier job from the perspective of software professionals". Tiers are a made up concept. An Nvidia programmer working on critical HPC work is in a difference league than someone who is very good at making infinite scroll smooth. Software is a broad field with different specializations. I don't know what you do but you made a bet and it's probably turned out quite well for you. Other people's bets did worse, others did better. Comparison is the thief of joy. Remember to be grateful for where you are and how far you've come.
- brutus1213 3y ago
  Thank you for your comment. These are all great points. I absolutely appreciate #1. #2 is a bit harder to accept as it implies I don't have agency. I always had the dogma that my hard work would make a difference from the perspective of financial success. And it has made a difference no doubt. The thing that has preoccupied my thinking is the magnitude. We're talking 100 to 1 when it comes to the impact of luck vs. hard work. This is a bit unsettling for me. Cest la vie I guess.
  - hnfong 3y ago
    > #2 is a bit harder to accept as it implies I don't have agency. Of course you do have agency to a certain extent, the important thing to recognize is that "hard work" leads to mostly linear gains, while to be "successful" (in the "getting $62M in stock options" sense) obviously requires some exponential windfall. The idea that hard work is the only factor for financial success is a blatant lie, perpetuated by those wishing to justify the almost-Ponzi nature of modern economies. Ever wondered why GDP growth is in terms of percentage, while compensation for labor is linear to the effort/work put in?
- zrn900 3y ago
  > Life isn't fair. The earlier you accept that, the better off you'll be. Life isn't fair because we make it so. The longer we keep accepting that, the longer we will delay in changing it for the better.
high_na_euv 3y ago
>The folks that worked there worked hard but it was not harder than any other top or mid-tier software company. Semiconductor industry is hard and pays less than webdev.
SJC_Hacker 3y ago
Hard work is no guarantee. Hardest job I ever had was as a teacher and you don't get paid shyte.

ctvo 3y ago

> That these folks hit the jackpot is great for them but quite senseless from the perspective of "you get rewarded for your efforts" perspective. How is that senseless? Their efforts, in whatever way, contributed to the massive increase in the sale of the GPUs, right? And they were awarded for it. If it wasn't Nvidia, but a start-up that was grinding for 10 years before they did well (eg Figma) would you feel the same way? Dig into that.

SilverBirch 3y ago
The point is that the rewards are clear and enormous, but the actual responsibility is way more diffuse. There will be plenty of people working at Nvidia who were less competent and less hard working than the person doing an almost identical job at ARM or AMD or Intel. But their reward will likely be 2-10x what those other people get. The aggregate system seems to be efficient - capitalism has done a fairly good job at creating a successful innovative business environment, but the way it does that is just wild rewards predominantly for people who were in the right place at the right time. There are people who are at Nvidia who are genuinely responsible for the great stuff that Nvidia has done in the last few years. But they're going to be a minority of the people who get rewarded.
- Jlagreen 2y ago
  [dead]

alephnerd 3y ago

> NVidia used to be a second tier job from the perspective of software professionals Since when? It was always a very popular choice for those truly interested in HPC and ML. I think the issue is there are a lot of people in the industry who actually don't care about the products they're building. If you're working on building something you like, it'll always be fun and worth it. > it was not harder than any other top or mid-tier software company What the hell is a "top" or "mid-tier" company. The kind of person who thinks like this is never going to make good money in this industry. If you are truly valuable, you will get a Google level salary anywhere. > The reason NVidia is in the position it is, is more due to the work of OpenAI, which of course builds on the entire community's effort They've been working on this problem for decades. Back when NLP was almost dead and Precision Medicine was a pipe dream, it was Nvidia that was helping maintain the ecosystem. > And yes, I'll admit I'm jealous You definetly are, but you also don't seem to have the right mentality for this industry. Being a generalist is useless. Being a domain expert the right application of technology in a specific industry is what gets you the big bucks. I don't need a sklearn script kiddie - I need an sklearn script kiddie who also knows how to apply ML to my specific business domain.

htrp 3y ago
> I don't need a sklearn script kiddie - I need an sklearn script kiddie who also knows how to apply ML to my specific business domain sounds like you need consultants ;-)
selimthegrim 3y ago
You should’ve seen the Twitter post some time back about ML engineers at “tier 1 companies” discovering what SVD was because of LoRA

Mahnahnohnah 3y ago

NVidia has been investing in Platform strategy for a long time. I have been reading nvidia research papers for a while, they probably invested a lot in their Omniverse and digital twin toolchain too. NVidia was also the first company to bring real time raytracing into the market. I don't think nivida was 'just' lucky. Even the intel ceo was super cooky a few month back when he stated that.

killingtime74 3y ago

Since when did the hardest jobs/putting in the most effort mean you were paid the most? If they were Software engineering would not even be in the top 100 hardest jobs....

ttoinou 3y ago
Being a good software engineer in a team is indeed among the top 10 hardest mental job out there
- pxx 3y ago
  Lol what. Even adjacent jobs like hardware engineering are much harder and pay less. And there are so many more challenging mental jobs. Think ATC, think labwork, think academia in competitive fields, think sales, ...
  - ttoinou 2y ago
    Depends on how you define mental. Skills required in listed jobs are also social. Agreed on hardware engineering though !
- tekla 3y ago
  JFC, I can't tell if this is serious or not.

superhuzza 3y ago

>How does one rationalize such wind-falls. By accepting that life isn't fair, and capitalism certainly isn't fair either. Working hard, and doing everything right, does not guarantee success. And when someone does have success, it's not necessarily to do with their actions. It can't really be rationalized. All you can do is maximize your chances of living the best life you can.

Ekaros 3y ago
Just have to come to terms that whole stock market and tech stock specially are in essence lottery. And rather distanced from any reality. In few years the valuations might be entirely different...

overstay8930 3y ago

This has been Nvidia's play for over a decade. AMD was playing checkers with gamers and linux while Nvidia was playing chess with datacenter and actually putting out good software that made it all possible.

mamonster 3y ago
I mean its not like people who went to work at AMD during the last decade are poor peasants.

Infinitesimus 3y ago

1. Life isn't fair. The earlier you accept that, the better off you'll be. This unfairness is why you're here posting on hackernews and someone through no fault of theirs is starving trying to cross the Sahara into greener pastures. It cuts both ways. 2. Hard work rarely ever implies financial success. 3. "...second tier job from the perspective of software professionals". Tiers are a made up concept. An Nvidia programmer working on critical HPC work is in a difference league than someone who is very good at making infinite scroll smooth. Software is a broad field with different specializations. I don't know what you do but you made a bet and it's probably turned out quite well for you. Other people's bets did worse, others did better. Comparison is the thief of joy. Remember to be grateful for where you are and how far you've come.

brutus1213 3y ago
Thank you for your comment. These are all great points. I absolutely appreciate #1. #2 is a bit harder to accept as it implies I don't have agency. I always had the dogma that my hard work would make a difference from the perspective of financial success. And it has made a difference no doubt. The thing that has preoccupied my thinking is the magnitude. We're talking 100 to 1 when it comes to the impact of luck vs. hard work. This is a bit unsettling for me. Cest la vie I guess.
- hnfong 3y ago
  > #2 is a bit harder to accept as it implies I don't have agency. Of course you do have agency to a certain extent, the important thing to recognize is that "hard work" leads to mostly linear gains, while to be "successful" (in the "getting $62M in stock options" sense) obviously requires some exponential windfall. The idea that hard work is the only factor for financial success is a blatant lie, perpetuated by those wishing to justify the almost-Ponzi nature of modern economies. Ever wondered why GDP growth is in terms of percentage, while compensation for labor is linear to the effort/work put in?
zrn900 3y ago
> Life isn't fair. The earlier you accept that, the better off you'll be. Life isn't fair because we make it so. The longer we keep accepting that, the longer we will delay in changing it for the better.

high_na_euv 3y ago

>The folks that worked there worked hard but it was not harder than any other top or mid-tier software company. Semiconductor industry is hard and pays less than webdev.

SJC_Hacker 3y ago

Hard work is no guarantee. Hardest job I ever had was as a teacher and you don't get paid shyte.