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Hybrids were mostly a tax scam in my opinion. In Germany until recently you could get a 6,000-8,000 € subsidy on these cars and when leasing them through a comp

Hybrids were mostly a tax scam in my opinion. In Germany until recently you could get a 6,000-8,000 € subsidy on these cars and when leasing them through a company you got a really nice tax reduction from 1% of the list price to 0,25 %, which amounts to several thousand Euros per year as well. Not to forget the vehicle tax was drastically reduced as well. Overall mostly very affluent people bought these cars, and the net effect for the environment was probably negative. It’s just a stupid idea to put a tiny battery into a 500 HP car and pretend it’s helping the environment when it just contributes to putting more cars on the road.

xenospn 2y ago
It’s not a scam if it’s legal.
- remorses 2y ago
  /skæm/ a dishonest plan for making money or getting an advantage, especially one that involves tricking people
  - kriops 2y ago
    Every definition that shows up when I search contains some variation of the word "fraud".
DarkNova6 2y ago
Unfortunately, it depends on where you are living. While cars in urban areas are a definite luxury, not having a car is the luxury outside of cities. No amount of incentives and enhancements of public transportation will ever fix this issue for sparsely populated areas. You can try to reduce exhausts and travel distances with car, but you can't fight car ownership. My parents live in such an area and they can commute to work and back fully electric. They charge overnight and always fall back to combustion for larger routes, such as the next airport. If you ignore the needs of those people, you only strengthen political forces who also support big oil. There needs to be a middle ground.
- izacus 2y ago
  I don't get these kinds of arguments. Even if rural areas still use cars, reducing pollution in urban areas (the ones, you know, most populated) still brings massive improvements to everyone (if nothing else, the ruralites aren't stuck in traffic as much when they inevitably commute into cities) and has very measureable health benefits for everyone in the cities. Where does this silly idea that "let's use more public transport in cities" requires rural areas to not use cars come from?
  - snowpid 2y ago
    by talking to politician from Urban areas. (This is just my real life experience). I live in an urban area, also talk to people from car friendly places and they complain about lack of parking areas which is no surprise in a city (and stupid to build more) Politicians from Urban areas otherwise hate cars and want to forbid everywhere including rural areas. I just wonder why people cant understand that different places need different stuff.
    - sofixa 2y ago
      [dead]
  - vel0city 2y ago
    "Urban" in the US doesn't mean a dense city where mass transit makes sense. Loads of areas in the US are "urban" but due to design are practically entirely car dependent. Houses are in seas of single family homes with large lots. Stores are islands separated by massive parking lots. Bolting on a bus service to those designs means driving tons of empty busses (lots of different routes because things are everywhere) and long walks (everything is an island) to connect to things. I'm not saying we shouldn't do mass transit. I like it, I want to see more of it. But thinking it's just a matter of buying more busses isn't reality for a lot of the US. We pretty much need to redesign our cities and towns for transit to be successful. Rug-pulling people by building out transit-unfriendly cities and then banning cars isn't going to go over well.
cyberpunk 2y ago
This is the same Germany who recently “halved” their plastic waste numbers by attaching milk bottle caps to the actual bottles so they’re counted as a single piece of waste instead of two… None of it is about the environment.
- sofixa 2y ago
  > This is the same Germany who recently “halved” their plastic waste numbers by attaching milk bottle caps to the actual bottles so they’re counted as a single piece of waste instead of two… Do you have any sources discussing this? Most waste numbers I've seen from France (where I live) and the EU are in volume or weight, neither of which will be affected by the caps remaining attached to bottles (which is an EU-wide thing IIRC).
  - Ringz 2y ago
    That is simply a lie. And these are probably accounts for opinion making. It is an EU-wide regulation from 2019, which is now being implemented by all EU states [0]. In addition, the way in which plastic waste is counted is also prescribed throughout the EU [1]. [0]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2019/904/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2019/904/oj [1]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32023D2683&qid=1713185201801 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
    - dkekenflxlf 2y ago
      ahh since i just poured a massive amount of milk onto the table, exactly due to this - what are you talking about? This reg is in place, now.
      - Ringz 2y ago
        You didn't read my linked sources, otherwise you would have recognized which part of the statement I'm referring to.
- FinnKuhn 2y ago
gruez 2y ago
>you got a really nice tax reduction from 1% of the list price to 0,25 %, which amounts to several thousand Euros per year as well how does a 0.75 percentage point savings amount to "several thousand Euros per year"? >Overall mostly very affluent people bought these cars, Tesla buyers tend to be affluent as well. Should we cancel EV tax credits for them as well? >and the net effect for the environment was probably negative I don't get it. According to the EPA at least hybrids have much better fuel efficiency than their conventional counterparts. Therefore I don't understand how the hybrids would be a net negative.
- clausz 2y ago
  When you get a company car your personal taxable income increases by 1% of the car's list price per month. Tax law assumes a 1% personal use of the car. You can avoid this tax by keeping a log book of all car rides indicating personal or business use. 1% of a $60,000 car is $7,200 per year. At a tax rate of 42% it's "several thousand Euros per year" For EVs this tax was reduced to 0.25% to further incentivise the adoption.
  - fredski42 2y ago
    In the Netherlands we need to add 22% of the list price to our income with the high income tax rate being 49.5%.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
SkyPuncher 2y ago
It absolutely helps. Even a small battery enable regenerative braking. Instead of simply losing all of your braking to heat, you capture some and use it on the next acceleration. I have a hybrid truck. In city driving, it is twice as efficient as its non-hybrid counterpart. It’s also about 50% more efficient than our mid-sized SUV. It also has the benefit of being able to turn off the engine for an extended period of idling.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

xenospn 2y ago

It’s not a scam if it’s legal.

remorses 2y ago
/skæm/ a dishonest plan for making money or getting an advantage, especially one that involves tricking people
- kriops 2y ago
  Every definition that shows up when I search contains some variation of the word "fraud".

DarkNova6 2y ago

Unfortunately, it depends on where you are living. While cars in urban areas are a definite luxury, not having a car is the luxury outside of cities. No amount of incentives and enhancements of public transportation will ever fix this issue for sparsely populated areas. You can try to reduce exhausts and travel distances with car, but you can't fight car ownership. My parents live in such an area and they can commute to work and back fully electric. They charge overnight and always fall back to combustion for larger routes, such as the next airport. If you ignore the needs of those people, you only strengthen political forces who also support big oil. There needs to be a middle ground.

izacus 2y ago
I don't get these kinds of arguments. Even if rural areas still use cars, reducing pollution in urban areas (the ones, you know, most populated) still brings massive improvements to everyone (if nothing else, the ruralites aren't stuck in traffic as much when they inevitably commute into cities) and has very measureable health benefits for everyone in the cities. Where does this silly idea that "let's use more public transport in cities" requires rural areas to not use cars come from?
- snowpid 2y ago
  by talking to politician from Urban areas. (This is just my real life experience). I live in an urban area, also talk to people from car friendly places and they complain about lack of parking areas which is no surprise in a city (and stupid to build more) Politicians from Urban areas otherwise hate cars and want to forbid everywhere including rural areas. I just wonder why people cant understand that different places need different stuff.
  - sofixa 2y ago
    [dead]
- vel0city 2y ago
  "Urban" in the US doesn't mean a dense city where mass transit makes sense. Loads of areas in the US are "urban" but due to design are practically entirely car dependent. Houses are in seas of single family homes with large lots. Stores are islands separated by massive parking lots. Bolting on a bus service to those designs means driving tons of empty busses (lots of different routes because things are everywhere) and long walks (everything is an island) to connect to things. I'm not saying we shouldn't do mass transit. I like it, I want to see more of it. But thinking it's just a matter of buying more busses isn't reality for a lot of the US. We pretty much need to redesign our cities and towns for transit to be successful. Rug-pulling people by building out transit-unfriendly cities and then banning cars isn't going to go over well.

cyberpunk 2y ago

This is the same Germany who recently “halved” their plastic waste numbers by attaching milk bottle caps to the actual bottles so they’re counted as a single piece of waste instead of two… None of it is about the environment.

sofixa 2y ago
> This is the same Germany who recently “halved” their plastic waste numbers by attaching milk bottle caps to the actual bottles so they’re counted as a single piece of waste instead of two… Do you have any sources discussing this? Most waste numbers I've seen from France (where I live) and the EU are in volume or weight, neither of which will be affected by the caps remaining attached to bottles (which is an EU-wide thing IIRC).
- Ringz 2y ago
  That is simply a lie. And these are probably accounts for opinion making. It is an EU-wide regulation from 2019, which is now being implemented by all EU states [0]. In addition, the way in which plastic waste is counted is also prescribed throughout the EU [1]. [0]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2019/904/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2019/904/oj [1]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32023D2683&qid=1713185201801 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
  - dkekenflxlf 2y ago
    ahh since i just poured a massive amount of milk onto the table, exactly due to this - what are you talking about? This reg is in place, now.
    - Ringz 2y ago
      You didn't read my linked sources, otherwise you would have recognized which part of the statement I'm referring to.
FinnKuhn 2y ago

gruez 2y ago

>you got a really nice tax reduction from 1% of the list price to 0,25 %, which amounts to several thousand Euros per year as well how does a 0.75 percentage point savings amount to "several thousand Euros per year"? >Overall mostly very affluent people bought these cars, Tesla buyers tend to be affluent as well. Should we cancel EV tax credits for them as well? >and the net effect for the environment was probably negative I don't get it. According to the EPA at least hybrids have much better fuel efficiency than their conventional counterparts. Therefore I don't understand how the hybrids would be a net negative.

clausz 2y ago
When you get a company car your personal taxable income increases by 1% of the car's list price per month. Tax law assumes a 1% personal use of the car. You can avoid this tax by keeping a log book of all car rides indicating personal or business use. 1% of a $60,000 car is $7,200 per year. At a tax rate of 42% it's "several thousand Euros per year" For EVs this tax was reduced to 0.25% to further incentivise the adoption.
- fredski42 2y ago
  In the Netherlands we need to add 22% of the list price to our income with the high income tax rate being 49.5%.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

SkyPuncher 2y ago

It absolutely helps. Even a small battery enable regenerative braking. Instead of simply losing all of your braking to heat, you capture some and use it on the next acceleration. I have a hybrid truck. In city driving, it is twice as efficient as its non-hybrid counterpart. It’s also about 50% more efficient than our mid-sized SUV. It also has the benefit of being able to turn off the engine for an extended period of idling.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]