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EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values
- 3s 3y agoPaywalled. Here’s the archive link: https://archive.is/aSU79 https://archive.is/aSU79
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sp332 3y ago"these vehicles are currently not realizing their potential, largely because they are not being charged and driven fully electrically as frequently as assumed" That's crazy to me, gasoline is so much more expensive than electricity, why wouldn't people charge the batteries more often?
- constantcrying 3y ago>That's crazy to me, gasoline is so much more expensive than electricity, why wouldn't people charge the batteries more often? Of course any sane person would want to charge their car electrically. So I can only imagine that the inability to do so is the problem. My guess would be because many people can't. In most European cities having a dedicated place to charge your car is not affordable to most people. Which is one reason manufacturers targeted their BEVs at the higher end, the population who has a garage and can install a charger there.
- klaustopher 3y agoTo me that's a really weird analogy. Nobody would think about putting a gasoline tank and pump in their garage ... There's plenty of public charging infrastructure in Europe. Fast charging on the highways, slow charging in living areas. Even many supermarkets offer fast chargers now, so that during your grocery shopping trip you can get most of your charging needs covered. There's plenty of opportunities to charge your vehicle over night, or really quickly when needed. It's absolutely possible to own an EV without a garage
- prmoustache 3y agoPlenty? It really depends on the location. There are only parking space with charging available for 2 cars in a 4km radius in my neighborhood. Charging that is anyway nit cost effective. YMMV but afaik in europe there are still plenty of places where using an EV wouldn't be practical at all, even in urban area. The only EV that I am considering is the Silence S01 moped and the reason is that its battery can be unmounted and be carried around as a trolley luggage so I could charge it inside my building.
- ac29 3y ago>There are only parking space with charging available for 2 cars in a 4km radius in my neighborhood. Charging that is anyway not cost effective. I wonder if the two things are related. There are hundreds of EV chargers within 4km of where I live and on average they are 20-50% cheaper than charging at home (with the exception of fast chargers, which are pretty expensive).
- prmoustache 3y agoEven if the price were right, would I want to have to check every couple of hours if the parking space is available for me to charge my vehicle? These parking spaces are mostly used by visitors because EVs aren't convenient enough for locals.
- ac29 3y agoI'm not going to argue that public EV charging is always convenient. It certainly sounds like it isnt where you are. But where I am, >95% of chargers have real time availability via app or web. You can schedule notifications for when a charger is free, and some charging networks even let you reserve chargers ahead of time.
- samastur 3y agoHere (Slovenia) that is a lot of hassle for no personal benefit. Public charging is expensive enough that you'll never recuperate the higher price of the vehicle (if you can't charge at home).
- dandy23 3y agoWhy do people buy them then?
- katsura 3y agoI made some back-of-the-napkin calculations, and based on the electric range and outside charging prices it didn't seem like electric cars are really that much cheaper. The only time they clearly come out on top is when you can charge them at home at off peak hours, at least around here. PHEVs are in an even worse situation because even though they have a small battery, they need to be charged for quite some time, so outside charging is kind of off the table.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y agoYour back-of-napkin calculations must assume values for the price of gas and the price of electricity. If, like in CA, gas is $5.46/gallon (ref. https://gasprices.aaa.com/ https://gasprices.aaa.com/) and electricity is $0.19/kWh (ref. https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/ https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/) then the equation looks very different from if gas is $4.74/gallon and electricity is $0.33/kWh like HI.
- ac29 3y agoThose electricity prices are way off for California. PGE, which serves most of the state, charges over $0.30/kwh even off peak with a EV focused rate plan. Peak rates on any plan are much, much higher.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y agoMy basic point is that "is a PHEV/EV good value?" is a very local question since the economics of electric power and gasoline are local as well.
- lorax 3y agoDC Fast charging prices are usually quite high (45-50 c/kwh and may well be near the cost of gas, but not all PHEV's support that. Level 2 charging is usually much cheaper (20-30 c/kwh) though slower. So if you can charge at one of those (such as at work) it also works out to be cheaper than gas.
- gadflyinyoureye 3y agoDepends. Could be that people are going further than the charge. If the EV side lacks recombinant braking, you might not charge. If there is a dearth of street side charging, you might not charge. If there is a dearth of office charging, you might not charge. A big issues off all forms of chargeable cars is the lack of charging stations. When there are charging stations, the amount of time required to charge dissuades people from charging. Perhaps they look at the 20 minutes to charge a baby PHEV and say, “no.”
- wenyuanyu 3y agoA factor could be the limited range on a single charge, which might not meet the daily travel needs unless there's convenient access to a charging station at home or work. Additionally, the charging process in Europe involves carrying your own cables, which adds an extra layer of inconvenience—unlike in some places like China where charging stations provide the cables. - To open the trunk twice daily to get and put the heavy cables could deter regular charging, particularly for those using their PHEV for commuting.
- tpm 3y agoBecause they are company cars and the company pays for gas but not your electricity if you charge it at home.
- wongarsu 3y agoAt least in Germany a lot of them are company cars. As in a car used by one specific employee for official and private uses alike, but paid by the company as part of the compensation. The employee might not have had a say in choosing a PHEV and might not be paying for the gasoline either.
- izacus 3y agoThis - the study sheet shows that only 11-15% of company owned hybrids are ever charged and driving on electricity. It's better for private owned ones... but it's still only 45-49%!!
- FinnKuhn 3y agothere are also companies that give you a card to pay for refuelling your car, but to charge it you would have to pay yourself - guess what people do...
- bearjaws 3y ago"Let me plugin my car every night now, and take it to the gas station every week." People are lazy. Worst of all worlds combination. At least with a EV I only plugin once a week at my home.
- HPsquared 3y agoThe cars are so expensive, that fuel costs are insignificant to the people who buy them.
- gruturo 3y agoBecause most of these (PHEV) vehicles have a completely laughable EV range. For many commutes you’d have to plug in every ${DEITY}damn time you get home and likewise in the office, every day. Good luck if you have street parking at home or if your work only offers a handful of chargers (or zero). The truth is that all of this was entirely foreseeable and PHEVs should never have been incentivized, but especially in Germany, the government is very, very much under the influence of big carmakers, and they were years behind in BEVs, so they had their way.
- CarVac 3y agoPlease, send the PHEVs to the US where we have garages and such to actually utilize them properly...
- KingOfCoders 3y agoWhat is this garage thing you mention? We don't have those in Germany!
- klaustopher 3y agoIn Germany you get tax benefits when buying a plugin hybrid instead of a pure gasoline car ... There's always been the legend that people return their leased PHEVs and the charging cable is still wrapped in plastic in the trunk and has never been used. Maybe there's some truth to this after all.
- p410n3 3y agoSee my comment, my grandpas neighbors are seemingly doing that
- fancyfredbot 3y agoI guess the subsidy is too high if people bought these in preference to conventional ICE and then didn't take advantage of the improved mileage. I am not entirely sure what the government could have done instead. Subsidizing public charging might have worked better - free fuel is a strong incentive - but then maybe people simply drive more. Or perhaps more likely they buy a hybrid thinking they'll charge it but find it to inconvenient.
- egeozcan 3y agoAs a car owner, I wish to see governments to invest in public transport. Cars mean freedom, and I love mine, but we shouldn't really use them for regular routes, like for commuting to work.
- throwaway63467 3y agoHybrids were mostly a tax scam in my opinion. In Germany until recently you could get a 6,000-8,000 € subsidy on these cars and when leasing them through a company you got a really nice tax reduction from 1% of the list price to 0,25 %, which amounts to several thousand Euros per year as well. Not to forget the vehicle tax was drastically reduced as well. Overall mostly very affluent people bought these cars, and the net effect for the environment was probably negative. It’s just a stupid idea to put a tiny battery into a 500 HP car and pretend it’s helping the environment when it just contributes to putting more cars on the road.
- xenospn 3y agoIt’s not a scam if it’s legal.
- DarkNova6 3y agoUnfortunately, it depends on where you are living. While cars in urban areas are a definite luxury, not having a car is the luxury outside of cities. No amount of incentives and enhancements of public transportation will ever fix this issue for sparsely populated areas. You can try to reduce exhausts and travel distances with car, but you can't fight car ownership. My parents live in such an area and they can commute to work and back fully electric. They charge overnight and always fall back to combustion for larger routes, such as the next airport. If you ignore the needs of those people, you only strengthen political forces who also support big oil. There needs to be a middle ground.
- p410n3 3y agoPersonal anecdotes ahaead: I'm German. My grandpa was an electrical engineer. He is very enthusiastic about his PHEV and talks about it alot. He bought one because not only is he interested, but also PHEV sales got heavily subsidized (i think like 6000€ or smth) and so many people bought one in his area as well. Apparently, a surprising amount of old middle class German people bought PHEVs and literally never charge it. My grandpa told me he onced asked his neighbor for a cable and that thing was brand new. I'm not sure if its ignorance or deliberate though. If you never use the battery the resale value might be higher? It's also literally just an anecdote but it was surprising
- pge 3y agoNot plugging it in does not mean the battery is not used, it just means that the battery is always charged by the gasoline engine in the car, rather than from the electric grid
- dainiusse 3y agoPlus. It will be even worse for the battery as it will always be close to zero (at least in vw group 1.4 phev) I own one and like it though. But I charge daily (from solar when the weather allows so) and it is sufficient for my commutes so th engine only starts in long trips.
- p410n3 3y agoThat makes sense! I'd still assume thats way less then ideal on fuel usage. Again anecdotal but my gramps is charging his on a regular wall plug. Takes long but gets the job done. And if not you still get to drive anyway, you're never stuck.
- entropicgravity 3y agoThe battery can also be charged by regenerative braking, which also allows the brakes to last much longer.
- ed_balls 3y agoThe subsidy is badly structured: - installing the charging point - 2k credit - charing at charging station - 2k credit - your electricity bill - 2k credit - servicing the car - the more you drive on electric power the greater the discount is, say up to 50% with 2k cap.
- tommiegannert 3y agoThis reminds me of the "eco" car that was my Volvo V70. You could fill it up with E85, which placed it in a lower tax bracket in Sweden. However, no one actually used E85, because Volvo engines had recently had issues with some engine gaskets being ruined by ethanol...
- subpixel 3y agoEvery Subaru in the US has a sticker that says "Partial Zero Emission Vehicle". Yeah right. https://www.subaruonlineparts.com/sku/j121sfj700.html https://www.subaruonlineparts.com/sku/j121sfj700.html
- airstrike 3y agoHow could anything be "partial zero"? lol
- SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago0 for some pollutants but not others. If you capture & catalyze all the SO2 in the exhaust but nothing else, that's a "partial zero emission vehicle".
- airstrike 3y agoThat's not partial zero in my book. It's at best "50% polluting" (making up the expected value here, but you get the point). Or "less polluting".. anything but "partial zero"
- SAI_Peregrinus 3y agoI think of it as a vector quantity with one (or more) components zero, and the rest nonzero. I agree it's a stupid name, but at least there's some reason to it. Misleading, but not entirely inaccurate.
- ProllyInfamous 3y ago
- rkalla 3y ago350% more _than assumed_ (because people drive them like hybrids and don't charge them) They aren't inherently more polluting.
- jfim 3y ago> They aren't inherently more polluting. They could be though, the additional battery on PHEVs is heavy.
- jajko 3y agoLets not forget manufacturing process, these engines are way more complex. Also more resources over the lifespan into maintenance.
- prmoustache 3y agoIf you emit more to build them yes.
- Neil44 3y agoI have a BMW PHEV, so much depends on your use cycle and whether or not you charge it. I have cheap electricity from 12:30am to 4:30am for charging every night. If I just do the school run and a trip to the shops in it I would never need petrol. But in the winter I can't get to the office and back on electricity only which is a shame. If I never charge it it works as a normal hybrid and I get low 40's UK MPG, which is still decent for a 225hp 4wd car. If you don't charge it from mains you can still self charge and choose where to use the electric power - i.e. siwtch it to charge on the motorway then switch to EV mode around town for a nicer drive and more overall efficiency. Most people would not bother doing that though.
- cjrp 3y agoWhat's the effective MPG using it the way you do?
- grepfru_it 3y agoFor comparison my 240hp awd non-hybrid vehicle gets about 34mpg
- xela79 3y agoPHEV with 230BHP on ICE motor only does 39mpg with mixed driving in winter with charging 78mpg with mixed driving in summer with charging 117mpg
- yread 3y ago...while still emitting ~40% less than non-hybrids. This is just a consequence of the crazy way WLTP was calculating emissions for PHEVs. It gets adjusted next year https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/features/new-ec-regulations-will-increase-phev-emissions-dramatically https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/features/...
- egeozcan 3y agoBut is it also calculating the depreciation of the battery, which has a totally different lifetime than the rest of the car and causes a lot of emissions? Or is it insignificant?
- feverzsj 3y agoWhat about carbon-neutral fuel? It sounds like the most practical solution.
- seltzered_ 3y agoYou have to ask how much energy it takes to produce a 'carbon-neutral fuel', whether its e-fuel, e-kerosene, or hydrogen. For example: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-25/lufthansa-says-green-fuel-would-eat-up-half-german-electricity https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-25/lufthansa...
- prmoustache 3y agoIt doesn't exist.
- connicpu 3y agoI can imagine that for many people this is unfortunately probably very true, but it would also be extremely dependent on the individual and their driving habits. I drive my Chevy Volt 95% of the time on just the battery, which in my state is being charged with >80% Hydroelectric power. I just have to add about 8 gallons of gas to the car every ~3 months, usually after driving someone to the airport or something.
- izacus 3y agoHere's a link to the PDF summary of the study if anyone wants to avoid popup spam on autonews: https://www.isi.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/isi/dokumente/cce/2022/PHEV_ISI-ICCT_Fact_Sheet_ENG-Update-2022.pdf https://www.isi.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/isi/dokumente/cce/...
- Ndymium 3y agoAs a Finn, the most annoying aspect here is the unequal treatment by the government. A PHEV is treated very favourably tax wise, and the emissions calculations are very optimistic about the usage of electric power. My car is a compressed natural gas car that I drive with 100 % biogas, which is domestic made from waste and other side products of industry, and has an estimated CO2 equivalent emission of ~0 g/km. The tax law and emissions calculations assume that I drive it on natural gas all of the time, never a single kilometer using biogas. Additionally I need to pay an extra fixed tax (not based on kilometers driven) just because it's a CNG car. This tax is 6 times higher than for PHEVs. Thus, a big SUV like Mitsubishi Outlander, which eats a lot of petrol as soon as you get outside the short EV range and runs its engine anyway when it's cold in the winter, gets to pay less tax (which is specifically based on CO2 emissions) than my biogas car. PHEVs in my eyes are nothing but greenwashing for most people.
- wenyuanyu 3y agoNatural gas and biogas, are they both CH4? I heard they could be way worse than CO2 and leak might be inevitable to distribute them around the country and pumped into cars from time to time? Are there scientific evaluation on the impact?
- Ndymium 3y agoIt's the same stuff. I'm not sure how much of it leaks, but you have to either flare it or use it for something or it leaks anyway. Using it for cars and trucks is basically flaring it but using that energy for propulsion. The taxes are not based on that, though. They're strictly interested in tailpipe emissions (not even lifecycle emissions), and don't recognise biogas at all. I'm planning on switching to a BEV eventually, but right now it's not financially possible. Most of the time I commute on my bicycle anyway.
- throwaway22032 3y agoDon't plug in hybrids typically have a 20-30 mile range on the battery? Unless I have a dedicated garage for my car it just sounds like a huge faff. The cost savings for plugging it in vs. fuelling it are probably something like 50 pence, and the only time I'm ever going to do that would be dangling a cable from a window if I manage to park outside the house.
- stuaxo 3y agoNo lampposts with charging where you are ?
- throwaway22032 3y agoThere are a couple and the parking spaces are restricted for use only whilst charging, the cost is also double or so what I pay at home. So basically for the sake of saving pennies I would have to hope that space is free, park in it, then move the car later when it's done, probably use some weird app because there's no normal way to pay, etc. If I forget, then I get a £40+ parking ticket which would wipe out weeks/months of savings. I don't own a PHEV but if I did I think I'd probably do it a few times for the novelty factor and then give up. It's not practical at all.
- lorax 3y agoI have a PHEV and charge overnight from a wall outlet. I wake up in the morning fully charged. Probably 99% of my trips are electric, but only 80% of my miles. The occasional long road trip really adds up. It is also hard (in the US) to charge on a trip. My car can't charge from a DC fast charger (it doesn't have the right connector), only from the level 2 AC chargers. From a L2 charger it only charges at 3.3 KW (most chargers support between 6.6-10 KW) which results in ~10 miles of range per hour. So if I take a half hour lunch break while driving, that's only 5 miles added. If you can charge at home or work it's a great deal, but if you can't I can see how it would be hard to charge it enough to make it worthwhile.