5 ms·

More like a ~300 Euro mid-range Android Phone already does 99% of what most people need: messaging, taking photos, web browsing, run all the popular apps, etc.

More like a ~300 Euro mid-range Android Phone already does 99% of what most people need: messaging, taking photos, web browsing, run all the popular apps, etc. and now are starting to have decent SoC performance, decent camera processing, longer SW support and high refresh OLED displays to boot. So if you strip away the artificially gate-kept services like iMessage, why should anyone who isn't tied in the Apple ecosystem spend a lot more on an iPhone?

bwb 3y ago
People still buy BMWs even though a Ford Focus is available.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  Sure, but I was talking from the perspective of someone who's budget is closer to a Focus than a BMW. If you can't afford a BMW, a Focus will stil get you from A to B just as fast considering legal speed limits, so then the BMW is no longer a necessity for those who need a car but more of a "want".
  - bwb 3y ago
    Totally, each will get you from A to B, but there is a reason most people don't buy a Ford Focus. Phones are the same, the response was asking why people buy Apple, I was just explaining there are loads of human reasons why people go for the premium option.
- oaiey 3y ago
  Well, when you read about German carmakers (BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Porsche, ...) they have very similar challenges than Apple. They also have declining sales. And their behavior and situation is very similar to Apple: - You have in many places reputation based lock-in into high-price products - You have a competition which for a lower price offers a same functionality, reasonable quality product. - There are unreasonable argumentation on why to stay on the high-reputation product. - You have a vendor who uses every possible trick to keep competition away from their markets - They have post covid, post inflation no longer customers who can afford their products - ...
jasode 3y ago
>If you strip away the artificially gate kept services like iMessage, why should anyone spend a lot more on an iPhone? I think your qualification of Apple-ecosystem-services is a big part. There are stories of statistics that say more people switch from Android to iPhone than vice-versa[1] and the big reasons I see are ecosystem related: + Apple Facetime calls. If some family & friends are using Facetime, it has a gravitational pull to get you to buy an iOS device so you're not missing out on the conversations + Apple "Find My" to keep track of family members. When this feature first came out, the Android ecosystem didn't have an equivalent without downloading an extra app. + Apple Watch integration. The Android watches from Garmin/Samsung/Fitbit are not as seamlessly integrated as Apple. The areas where iPhone is worse than Android such as voice assistants Apple Siri vs Google Assistant, or cloud photos A.I. tools, or no sideloading vs sideloading, etc -- are not deal-breakers for most mainstream Apple consumers. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=more+people+switch+from+android+to+iphone+rather+than+reverse https://www.google.com/search?q=more+people+switch+from+andr...
- oaiey 3y ago
  In most other places than the US there is no lock-in by iMessage. Everyone uses WhatsApp (or country specific alternatives). Family tracking is available on Google Maps since so long. Apple Watch as a market is not relevant enough. So ignoring the US situation of iPhones, in the rest of the world, iPhones are purely reputation based thing ("oh you can afford an iPhone" / "it looks good with my <add your brand> handbag") and a simplicity to use situation (enforced UX etc). In the past the camera was a key differentiator. And Apple (incl. some Android competition) will have a very hard time with inflation battled countries to maintain a high-cost strategy with a population who cannot afford it anymore.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  Yes, but lot of people on the planet don't need, care or want the whole Apple ecosystem, most people just want "A phone" to surf the web, take photos and run basic apps like Twitter, Instagram, WhatsApp and that's it. And for that purpose, expensive iPhones and cheap Androids are relatively interchangeable commodity items since they all can run the same apps. Yes, iPhones will have less spy/bloatware, take better pictures, run apps a bit smoother and faster, but not 2-4 times better, and most people won't care or notice unless they compare and review both side by side which almost nobody does, most just impulse buy based on sales price, marketing, brand/platform familiarity or simply just on network effects (if my family or friends have iPhone I'll also get an iPhone). Apple's biggest cash-cow is the network effect and lock-in of their well oiled ecosystem, but if the EU will force them to open it up to competitors, then their charade could fall apart, hence why they'll fight the EU as long as possible to maintain it.
shiroiushi 3y ago
>So if you strip away the artificially gate-kept services like iMessage, why should anyone who isn't tied in the Apple ecosystem spend a lot more on an iPhone? No one in Europe cares about iMessage: that's a US-only issue (and Canada). People outside North America don't use SMS texting with their friends and family like Americans do.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  We kind of still do in Europe, but that is SMS are mostly free even pre-paid packets have lots of them, and there isn't data coverage all over the place, so if we want a guarantee that someone sees a message on time, SMS instead of Whatapps/Viber/.... is preferable.
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    > and there isn't data coverage all over the place > so if we want a guarantee that someone sees a message on time, SMS instead of Whatapps/Viber/.... is preferable. Do you understand what this works only with 2G, 3G networks? A proper 4G is data-only one, so the SMS there are emulated over a data link.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Plenty of those around Europe still.
    - kiwijamo 3y ago
      SMS generally will deliver quicker and with more reliability in low reception scenarios. I've been in places with 1 bar of reception where data barely works so the likes of WhatsApp/Messenger/Signal/etc is hit and miss, whereas SMS just works. On Apple devices iMessage has a fall back availiable to pure SMS. This is less of an issue with modern LTE networks (which performs much better with low signal) but this was quite common in the GSM and UMTS days. Depending on where you go there may still be legacy UMTS/GSM only coverage.
- badpun 3y ago

bwb 3y ago

People still buy BMWs even though a Ford Focus is available.

Rinzler89 3y ago
Sure, but I was talking from the perspective of someone who's budget is closer to a Focus than a BMW. If you can't afford a BMW, a Focus will stil get you from A to B just as fast considering legal speed limits, so then the BMW is no longer a necessity for those who need a car but more of a "want".
- bwb 3y ago
  Totally, each will get you from A to B, but there is a reason most people don't buy a Ford Focus. Phones are the same, the response was asking why people buy Apple, I was just explaining there are loads of human reasons why people go for the premium option.
oaiey 3y ago
Well, when you read about German carmakers (BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Porsche, ...) they have very similar challenges than Apple. They also have declining sales. And their behavior and situation is very similar to Apple: - You have in many places reputation based lock-in into high-price products - You have a competition which for a lower price offers a same functionality, reasonable quality product. - There are unreasonable argumentation on why to stay on the high-reputation product. - You have a vendor who uses every possible trick to keep competition away from their markets - They have post covid, post inflation no longer customers who can afford their products - ...

jasode 3y ago

>If you strip away the artificially gate kept services like iMessage, why should anyone spend a lot more on an iPhone? I think your qualification of Apple-ecosystem-services is a big part. There are stories of statistics that say more people switch from Android to iPhone than vice-versa[1] and the big reasons I see are ecosystem related: + Apple Facetime calls. If some family & friends are using Facetime, it has a gravitational pull to get you to buy an iOS device so you're not missing out on the conversations + Apple "Find My" to keep track of family members. When this feature first came out, the Android ecosystem didn't have an equivalent without downloading an extra app. + Apple Watch integration. The Android watches from Garmin/Samsung/Fitbit are not as seamlessly integrated as Apple. The areas where iPhone is worse than Android such as voice assistants Apple Siri vs Google Assistant, or cloud photos A.I. tools, or no sideloading vs sideloading, etc -- are not deal-breakers for most mainstream Apple consumers. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=more+people+switch+from+android+to+iphone+rather+than+reverse https://www.google.com/search?q=more+people+switch+from+andr...

oaiey 3y ago
In most other places than the US there is no lock-in by iMessage. Everyone uses WhatsApp (or country specific alternatives). Family tracking is available on Google Maps since so long. Apple Watch as a market is not relevant enough. So ignoring the US situation of iPhones, in the rest of the world, iPhones are purely reputation based thing ("oh you can afford an iPhone" / "it looks good with my <add your brand> handbag") and a simplicity to use situation (enforced UX etc). In the past the camera was a key differentiator. And Apple (incl. some Android competition) will have a very hard time with inflation battled countries to maintain a high-cost strategy with a population who cannot afford it anymore.
Rinzler89 3y ago
Yes, but lot of people on the planet don't need, care or want the whole Apple ecosystem, most people just want "A phone" to surf the web, take photos and run basic apps like Twitter, Instagram, WhatsApp and that's it. And for that purpose, expensive iPhones and cheap Androids are relatively interchangeable commodity items since they all can run the same apps. Yes, iPhones will have less spy/bloatware, take better pictures, run apps a bit smoother and faster, but not 2-4 times better, and most people won't care or notice unless they compare and review both side by side which almost nobody does, most just impulse buy based on sales price, marketing, brand/platform familiarity or simply just on network effects (if my family or friends have iPhone I'll also get an iPhone). Apple's biggest cash-cow is the network effect and lock-in of their well oiled ecosystem, but if the EU will force them to open it up to competitors, then their charade could fall apart, hence why they'll fight the EU as long as possible to maintain it.

shiroiushi 3y ago

>So if you strip away the artificially gate-kept services like iMessage, why should anyone who isn't tied in the Apple ecosystem spend a lot more on an iPhone? No one in Europe cares about iMessage: that's a US-only issue (and Canada). People outside North America don't use SMS texting with their friends and family like Americans do.

pjmlp 3y ago
We kind of still do in Europe, but that is SMS are mostly free even pre-paid packets have lots of them, and there isn't data coverage all over the place, so if we want a guarantee that someone sees a message on time, SMS instead of Whatapps/Viber/.... is preferable.
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  > and there isn't data coverage all over the place > so if we want a guarantee that someone sees a message on time, SMS instead of Whatapps/Viber/.... is preferable. Do you understand what this works only with 2G, 3G networks? A proper 4G is data-only one, so the SMS there are emulated over a data link.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Plenty of those around Europe still.
  - kiwijamo 3y ago
    SMS generally will deliver quicker and with more reliability in low reception scenarios. I've been in places with 1 bar of reception where data barely works so the likes of WhatsApp/Messenger/Signal/etc is hit and miss, whereas SMS just works. On Apple devices iMessage has a fall back availiable to pure SMS. This is less of an issue with modern LTE networks (which performs much better with low signal) but this was quite common in the GSM and UMTS days. Depending on where you go there may still be legacy UMTS/GSM only coverage.
badpun 3y ago