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"Cooking is narcissism, move on. 'Flavour' is a secular religion. Suck your slop from the tube." /s Life is without meaning in and of itself. It falls to us to

by troad 3y ago

"Cooking is narcissism, move on. 'Flavour' is a secular religion. Suck your slop from the tube." /s Life is without meaning in and of itself. It falls to us to give life meaning. Art is a way of giving life meaning. Tell me what gives your life meaning and I can be similarly scornful. I'm unsure what the net gain of this exercise would be, other than a net increase to misery. Learn to be tolerant - even encouraging - of others having different priorities from yourself. You get the benefit of others doing so for you every day.

hotdogscout 3y ago
>Tell me what gives your life meaning and I can be similarly scornful Art. Just because I describe something without emotional involvement doesn't mean I'm against it. I love art. Most leftist movements are coalitions based on envy and revenge. Justice is delayed vindictiveness. Doesn't mean I don't vote for leftists. People have no free will. Doesn't mean I think it's unfair to arrest a murderer. You can be honest about what things are. Narcissism is fine, envy is fine, the constant sublimation of these impulses as something other than what they are is tiring. Eating meat is extremely immoral, I still do! My comment was a vague response to a lot of people here berating the appreciation of that apartment. Yes it's narcissism, all art is narcissism, move on, this is ok!
makeitshine 3y ago
When you say art is a way to give life meaning, in what way do you mean that? I ask, because for me, art, as ambiguous of a term as that is, has been a means to give me meaning in the moment. It later acts as a memento of those moments. A sort of nostalgic trigger. The act of creating something is sort of a release, and in some way I agree with the OP that it is narcissistic, but there is little we do which isn't centered on ourselves. Where I differ is the negative connotation. Art as expression is a way for me to "get something off my chest", so to speak. That other people might enjoy it is only a byproduct, and I think many artists feel the same. It's probably the reason so many are discovered only after their death.
- troad 3y ago
  For you art is expression, but the interesting question is, why do you find expression meaningful? Do the stars care about your expression? No, they're busy, they're fusing hydrogen to helium. Who does care then? Well, you do. Art as expression is meaningful - tautologically - and perhaps somewhat unsatisfyingly - solely because you have assigned it meaning. But, importantly, that does create real meaning - it's the only thing that can. You give expressive art meaning, and your creation of something meaningful in turn gives you meaning. Every choice we make ultimately comes back to what we find to be meaningful (or it follows on from something we do), and in far as life has no intrinsic meaning, that meaning is always and necessarily self-created (perhaps consciously, perhaps unconsciously by way of received wisdom that a person perpetuates by thoughts, words and deeds). "Art is without value" is not really an interesting statement, except in as far as it says that the speaker finds meaning elsewhere than art. It's a statement of preference couched in objective language. Personally, I agree that art is expression and that that expression is meaningful, so you and I derive meaning, at least in part, from similar choices.
TOMDM 3y ago
> Life is without meaning in and of itself. It falls to us to give life meaning. Art is a way of giving life meaning. I'd disagree, people find all sorts of meaning in life. I'd argue that art doesn't inherently give life meaning, but is often an expression of the meaning people have found.
- troad 3y ago
  I think you and I are actually saying the same thing. Life is intrinsically without meaning. Emphasis on intrinsically: it can be given meaning, but it doesn't come with one included in the box. We can pick an arbitrary thing to imbue life with meaning. Art is one such thing. There are many others (children, religion, career, etc.) and they're not generally exclusive, though time constraints do apply.
  - HKH2 3y ago
    Objective meaning doesn't exist, but pain receptors definitely come included in the box, along with a lot of other drives. You can override them with culture, but culture is not exactly arbitrary either.
    - troad 3y ago
      > Objective meaning doesn't exist, but pain receptors definitely come included in the box, along with a lot of other drives. You can override them with culture, but culture is not exactly arbitrary either. You're conflating meaning with facts. The meaning you give your life is internal and inherently subjective. External reality is not.
      - HKH2 3y ago
        Meaning depends on biology. We have a lot in common biologically, so a lot of meaning is intersubjective. Language is useful as far as meaning is intersubjective. You can explore meaning, but I don't think you get to choose what has meaning.

by troad 3y ago

hotdogscout 3y ago

>Tell me what gives your life meaning and I can be similarly scornful Art. Just because I describe something without emotional involvement doesn't mean I'm against it. I love art. Most leftist movements are coalitions based on envy and revenge. Justice is delayed vindictiveness. Doesn't mean I don't vote for leftists. People have no free will. Doesn't mean I think it's unfair to arrest a murderer. You can be honest about what things are. Narcissism is fine, envy is fine, the constant sublimation of these impulses as something other than what they are is tiring. Eating meat is extremely immoral, I still do! My comment was a vague response to a lot of people here berating the appreciation of that apartment. Yes it's narcissism, all art is narcissism, move on, this is ok!

makeitshine 3y ago

When you say art is a way to give life meaning, in what way do you mean that? I ask, because for me, art, as ambiguous of a term as that is, has been a means to give me meaning in the moment. It later acts as a memento of those moments. A sort of nostalgic trigger. The act of creating something is sort of a release, and in some way I agree with the OP that it is narcissistic, but there is little we do which isn't centered on ourselves. Where I differ is the negative connotation. Art as expression is a way for me to "get something off my chest", so to speak. That other people might enjoy it is only a byproduct, and I think many artists feel the same. It's probably the reason so many are discovered only after their death.

troad 3y ago
For you art is expression, but the interesting question is, why do you find expression meaningful? Do the stars care about your expression? No, they're busy, they're fusing hydrogen to helium. Who does care then? Well, you do. Art as expression is meaningful - tautologically - and perhaps somewhat unsatisfyingly - solely because you have assigned it meaning. But, importantly, that does create real meaning - it's the only thing that can. You give expressive art meaning, and your creation of something meaningful in turn gives you meaning. Every choice we make ultimately comes back to what we find to be meaningful (or it follows on from something we do), and in far as life has no intrinsic meaning, that meaning is always and necessarily self-created (perhaps consciously, perhaps unconsciously by way of received wisdom that a person perpetuates by thoughts, words and deeds). "Art is without value" is not really an interesting statement, except in as far as it says that the speaker finds meaning elsewhere than art. It's a statement of preference couched in objective language. Personally, I agree that art is expression and that that expression is meaningful, so you and I derive meaning, at least in part, from similar choices.

TOMDM 3y ago

> Life is without meaning in and of itself. It falls to us to give life meaning. Art is a way of giving life meaning. I'd disagree, people find all sorts of meaning in life. I'd argue that art doesn't inherently give life meaning, but is often an expression of the meaning people have found.

troad 3y ago
I think you and I are actually saying the same thing. Life is intrinsically without meaning. Emphasis on intrinsically: it can be given meaning, but it doesn't come with one included in the box. We can pick an arbitrary thing to imbue life with meaning. Art is one such thing. There are many others (children, religion, career, etc.) and they're not generally exclusive, though time constraints do apply.
- HKH2 3y ago
  Objective meaning doesn't exist, but pain receptors definitely come included in the box, along with a lot of other drives. You can override them with culture, but culture is not exactly arbitrary either.
  - troad 3y ago
    > Objective meaning doesn't exist, but pain receptors definitely come included in the box, along with a lot of other drives. You can override them with culture, but culture is not exactly arbitrary either. You're conflating meaning with facts. The meaning you give your life is internal and inherently subjective. External reality is not.
    - HKH2 3y ago
      Meaning depends on biology. We have a lot in common biologically, so a lot of meaning is intersubjective. Language is useful as far as meaning is intersubjective. You can explore meaning, but I don't think you get to choose what has meaning.