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In the 80s and 90s there was a lot of hostility to Japan, because they looked like they might surpass us economically. They were even the villain of some Tom C

In the 80s and 90s there was a lot of hostility to Japan, because they looked like they might surpass us economically. They were even the villain of some Tom Clancy books. Now, the fear/hate is aimed at China, same reason.

jszymborski 3y ago
There's more reason than that for Western hostility to China, not least of which is that it is an authoritarian regime with aggressive expansionist goals. Let's also not forget the reciprocity of the hostilities.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  > aggressive expansionist goals Like reintegrating Taiwan and HK? Anything else? Tibet I guess? I thought China was generally satisfied with its borders, except for areas it feels were split off due to external interference.
  - jszymborski 3y ago
    I mean, I feel like "generally satsified but for a couple of sovreign states" is handwaving things a bit. Russia similarly feels Ukraine was split off due to "external interference". Makes the claim no more legitimate. But also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_imperialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_imperialism
  - przemub 3y ago
    So just give or take 35 million people, with Taiwan being integral to the world's chip manufacturing industry, and HK conquest violating the handover treaty. That's far from nothing.
  - jjk166 3y ago
    There's a lot of areas that it feels were split off due to external influence. Arguably nearly the whole of east Asia has at some point or another been under some form of Chinese control. They are making extensive claims on the south china sea into waters contested with Vietnam and the Philippines. There are several small islands between Taiwan and Japan which are China claims (and more importantly the oil beneath them). There are a number of territorial disputes with India and Bhutan over control of parts of the Tibetan Plateau which are critical to the water supplies of nearly the whole of Asia. Additionally several border disputes previously settled between China and it's neighbors, such as Russia and the states of Central Asia, are likely to be reconsidered as Russian influence in the region diminishes. China has also been proactively setting up claims to various exclaves around the world, primarily in the Indian Ocean and Africa. They've set up various "debt traps" where they lend money to build infrastructure like ports to nations that have no serious chance at repaying the loans, and should they default then China receives control. Additionally China is pursuing traditional overseas military bases in Burma, Cuba, Equatorial Guinea, Pakistan, Seychelles, Sri Lanka, Tajikistan, Tanzania, and the UAE, in addition to bases it already has in Djibouti and Cambodia. Such bases are not in and of themselves expansionist, and probably are more about keeping vital trade links open, but increased ability to project power would be a pre-requisite for any expansionist goals in those regions.
- throw39323 3y ago
  Does that really matter? Saudi Arabia is an ally.
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    Saudi Arabia is an unfortunate alliance as a pawn in the larger game against the more severe problems that China, Russia, and Iran pose, along with ensuring energy stability until we have better options. In a better world, we would never be friends with a dictatorship like that and their ideals. It's the less bad option, unfortunately. Snubbing all countries with problematic governments like Turkey, Saudi, Ethiopia, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, Vietnam, etc. will quickly land you in a tougher situation to accomplish better ideals.
    - woooooo 3y ago
      So what's the specific difference between Saudi/Turkey and Russia/China then? Sounds like all the moralizing is just chaff and it's pure power politics.
      - reducesuffering 3y ago
        Saudi/Turkey are not invading a neighboring democracy to annex. Russia is and China is very much preparing to. There are 150k - 400k people dead because of what Russia did.
        woooooo 3y ago
        I want to clarify that I'm not "pro russia" here. I'm "anti bullshit". Every nation has propaganda, don't get high on your own supply. That said, if you think for 5 seconds there are some blatant recent and ongoing examples of USA and allies invading and killing a lot.
        reducesuffering 3y ago
        Of course, ostensibly. However, for starters, US hasn't been about real annexation since Hawaii 125 years ago, which is not the case for Russia/China that this thread has been about. Iraq was a very major fuckup, even though Saddam was an awful dictator and House Democrats voted against it. Afghanistan was a massive waste, but after the initial Bin Laden operation, was for the naive cause of actually making a functional democracy for the people there, without which women are currently uneducated property. Israel has the double sided problem of their far right wing wanting to annex West Bank while violence escalated 100x by the Oct. 7th assault. Not exactly a peaceful neighbor gets invaded to upend a stable status quo for decades...
catlikesshrimp 3y ago
Japan never had nuclear weapons. China has like ten times the population of japan, is now a dictatorship (like the roman republic, maybe?), the territory is massive, is a russian ally and a couple more reasons.
KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
It's next to impossible to strong arm China into another Plaza Accord, unlike Japan.
reducesuffering 3y ago
Why don't you address the clear differences of an authoritarian one party dictatorship that already materially supports the invasion and destruction of Ukraine, and an impending invasion of another 80 year sovereign country?

jszymborski 3y ago

There's more reason than that for Western hostility to China, not least of which is that it is an authoritarian regime with aggressive expansionist goals. Let's also not forget the reciprocity of the hostilities.

pfannkuchen 3y ago
> aggressive expansionist goals Like reintegrating Taiwan and HK? Anything else? Tibet I guess? I thought China was generally satisfied with its borders, except for areas it feels were split off due to external interference.
- jszymborski 3y ago
  I mean, I feel like "generally satsified but for a couple of sovreign states" is handwaving things a bit. Russia similarly feels Ukraine was split off due to "external interference". Makes the claim no more legitimate. But also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_imperialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_imperialism
- przemub 3y ago
  So just give or take 35 million people, with Taiwan being integral to the world's chip manufacturing industry, and HK conquest violating the handover treaty. That's far from nothing.
- jjk166 3y ago
  There's a lot of areas that it feels were split off due to external influence. Arguably nearly the whole of east Asia has at some point or another been under some form of Chinese control. They are making extensive claims on the south china sea into waters contested with Vietnam and the Philippines. There are several small islands between Taiwan and Japan which are China claims (and more importantly the oil beneath them). There are a number of territorial disputes with India and Bhutan over control of parts of the Tibetan Plateau which are critical to the water supplies of nearly the whole of Asia. Additionally several border disputes previously settled between China and it's neighbors, such as Russia and the states of Central Asia, are likely to be reconsidered as Russian influence in the region diminishes. China has also been proactively setting up claims to various exclaves around the world, primarily in the Indian Ocean and Africa. They've set up various "debt traps" where they lend money to build infrastructure like ports to nations that have no serious chance at repaying the loans, and should they default then China receives control. Additionally China is pursuing traditional overseas military bases in Burma, Cuba, Equatorial Guinea, Pakistan, Seychelles, Sri Lanka, Tajikistan, Tanzania, and the UAE, in addition to bases it already has in Djibouti and Cambodia. Such bases are not in and of themselves expansionist, and probably are more about keeping vital trade links open, but increased ability to project power would be a pre-requisite for any expansionist goals in those regions.
throw39323 3y ago
Does that really matter? Saudi Arabia is an ally.
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  Saudi Arabia is an unfortunate alliance as a pawn in the larger game against the more severe problems that China, Russia, and Iran pose, along with ensuring energy stability until we have better options. In a better world, we would never be friends with a dictatorship like that and their ideals. It's the less bad option, unfortunately. Snubbing all countries with problematic governments like Turkey, Saudi, Ethiopia, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, Vietnam, etc. will quickly land you in a tougher situation to accomplish better ideals.
  - woooooo 3y ago
    So what's the specific difference between Saudi/Turkey and Russia/China then? Sounds like all the moralizing is just chaff and it's pure power politics.
    - reducesuffering 3y ago
      Saudi/Turkey are not invading a neighboring democracy to annex. Russia is and China is very much preparing to. There are 150k - 400k people dead because of what Russia did.
      - woooooo 3y ago
        I want to clarify that I'm not "pro russia" here. I'm "anti bullshit". Every nation has propaganda, don't get high on your own supply. That said, if you think for 5 seconds there are some blatant recent and ongoing examples of USA and allies invading and killing a lot.
        reducesuffering 3y ago
        Of course, ostensibly. However, for starters, US hasn't been about real annexation since Hawaii 125 years ago, which is not the case for Russia/China that this thread has been about. Iraq was a very major fuckup, even though Saddam was an awful dictator and House Democrats voted against it. Afghanistan was a massive waste, but after the initial Bin Laden operation, was for the naive cause of actually making a functional democracy for the people there, without which women are currently uneducated property. Israel has the double sided problem of their far right wing wanting to annex West Bank while violence escalated 100x by the Oct. 7th assault. Not exactly a peaceful neighbor gets invaded to upend a stable status quo for decades...

catlikesshrimp 3y ago

Japan never had nuclear weapons. China has like ten times the population of japan, is now a dictatorship (like the roman republic, maybe?), the territory is massive, is a russian ally and a couple more reasons.

KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago

It's next to impossible to strong arm China into another Plaza Accord, unlike Japan.

reducesuffering 3y ago

Why don't you address the clear differences of an authoritarian one party dictatorship that already materially supports the invasion and destruction of Ukraine, and an impending invasion of another 80 year sovereign country?