4 ms·

I suspect we'll see more openness to this with homes in the future coming with batteries to power for 12-24 hours without the grid.

robocat 2y ago
In my experience 12-24 hours won't help you enough in a city, and is woefully inadequate in rural areas. There are better ways to spend your money to cover risks than batteries. Maybe if you were getting a battery for other reasons, or as a luxury if you are wealthy enough.
- toast0 2y ago
  I think if you have a big enough time of use differential, and you have significant use during peak pricing, you can justify a local battery system for peak shaving and get backup power 'for free' or vice versa. 12-24 hours would have outlasted any outage I've experienced, until I moved to my current place, but it has a propane fueled whole house generator (and low utility rates with no time of use component; i haven't attempted the math, but I'm pretty sure running from my generator is way more expensive than utility power... OTOH, I've had many utility failures and only one generator failure (12v battery failed due to charger failure))
  - simfree 2y ago
    With a battery, you could run your generator at peak efficiency when it's running, and idle it otherwise, significantly reducing your running costs.
    - toast0 2y ago
      Yeah, but even at peak efficiency, I don't think $/kWh on propane is going to be better than $/kWh from my utility. A battery system would be nice though, all things considered, so I could run the generator for fewer hours during an outage: only running the generator when my demand is high or the battery needs to charge would reduce the time spent at low load where efficiency is poor.
      - robocat 2y ago
        > so I could run the generator for fewer hours during an outage: only running the generator when my demand is high or the battery needs to charge would reduce the time spent at low load where efficiency is poor. There is little point worrying about marginal efficiency when power is out because saving a few dollars over a few hours is not worth optimising for. - High fixed costs (batteries & inverter) would dominate small operating costs (propane, wear&tear).
        toast0 2y ago
        Marginal efficiency could allow for longer system runtime with the stored fuel, though. That would be important if fuel deliveries were unavailable, and since utility outages (for me) correlate with poor weather that causes poor road conditions, it seems like a reasonable thing to consider. Also, I think maybe a battery supplied inverter would give me less wobbly power than I get at low load --- I'm pretty sensitive to flickery lighting. Probably not worth it though at the moment. I suspect it would be simpler and lower cost to double my fuel storage capacity. Lived experience says in 6 years, the maximum duration outage was less than 3 days, and my storage capacity is plenty good for that.
        robocat 2y ago
        From your past comments I think you are near Seattle, and that area looks fairly red on the USGS national seismic hazard map! > the maximum duration outage was less than 3 days Past performance is no guarantee of future results! My semi-rural parents were at one end of the faultline of the Canterbury earthquake and my sister lives on a rural property on top of the Kaikoura earthquake. If you are in an earthquake zone, my lived experience has been that planning for more than a weeks disruption is very worthwhile. They both have wood burners and had months of firewood so heating was fine. They used gas cookers for a while. Both have septic tanks and both had non-powered water supplies (no electric powered wells - they had tanks fed from roof and hillside). I think my sister lost a couple of chest freezers of meat because power was out. Many people had no serviced power for an extended period of time. My sister lost their ADSL internet (their property has zero cellphone coverage). She'd be okay now with her Starlink. After an earthquake, you cannot buy a generator (they are all sold quickly). Getting gas deliveries might be difficult (bridges and roads were fucked near my sisters). I will instal solar with batteries and I live in a city. Power, sewage and water were out in many parts of Christchurch for a long time after the Christchurch earthquake. I'm no prepper. I am just happy to hedge my insurance bets if the price is right! Then again: after three major earthquakes I would hope we all learn a little... If you're visiting NZ then come visit.
- mjevans 2y ago
  Nearby site generator? Diesel or Natural Gas, depending on reliability during power outages?
- askvictor 2y ago
  Depends what you need to do with that. Sure, you can't 'live normally' on battery power for too long, but if you prioritise things, your battery can last for a much longer time. Fridge/freezer to prevent spoilage, phone/laptop charger for comms, a couple of lights, a microwave oven. Heating/cooling is tricky as that's a _big_ draw, but there are ways to be efficient with that too.
  - toast0 2y ago
    > phone/laptop charger for comms You may not need to do that for long, depending where you live. My wired ISP does not provide service if there's no utility power at their box down the street. The cell towers provide service for about 2-4 hours. And after that, I've got inbound only comms (radio / tv).
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > Maybe if you were getting a battery for other reasons, or as a luxury if you are wealthy enough. Batteries are cheap. A 5 kWh battery storage pack can be had for ~1500€ these days, that's enough to ride at least the fridge, freezer and LED lighting for a day or two through a major event. In rural areas, add a small 1-2 kW generator and a transfer switch for another few hundred euros, and now you're completely set even for larger outages.
  - robocat 2y ago
    If you're buying a generator, why bother spending 1500€ more? Plus you are ignoring the cost of a charger and inverter. I found a cheap 5kWh wall unit includes everything for $4,350.00 NZD (things are more expensive at our edge of the world). Median after tax pay in New Zealand is a bit over $52,000 per year. I don't consider nearly a months earnings to be "cheap". Maybe you are just wealthy?
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      > If you're buying a generator, why bother spending 1500€ more? You can use a battery pack not just for emergency storage but also to store energy in cheap times (i.e. at noon) and draw from it at expensive rate times. Of course that requires a variable-rate tariff, but these are getting rolled out even in Europe. > Plus you are ignoring the cost of a charger and inverter. Indeed, you're right (my bad, mis-read an offer), but even then - a full system, including battery pack, controller and an inverter that can additionally be fed from a solar panel is just 2.500€. > I don't consider nearly a months earnings to be "cheap". Maybe you are just wealthy? Distribute the 2500€ across 20 years of lifetime and it's 10€ a month, and that's before the potential for savings you can get by attaching a solar panel. Yes, a (relatively) large upfront investment if you are in remote places like NZ where everything is expensive, but in Europe or the US? Almost a no-brainer, assuming you have a place to install it. [1] https://www.fm-solar.de/batteriespeicher/batteriespeicher-pv-0-mwst/afore-1-phasiger-hybrid-wechselrichter-3-6kw-5kw-pv-solar-batteriespeicher-0-mwst_531999_14659/ https://www.fm-solar.de/batteriespeicher/batteriespeicher-pv...
TechnoTopian 2y ago
We already have those batteries: Electric Vehicles. We just need some kind of vehicle-to-grid standardization.
- bagels 2y ago
  What happens when the power goes out when your car is not charged, or if you want to drive somewhere during a power outage?

robocat 2y ago

In my experience 12-24 hours won't help you enough in a city, and is woefully inadequate in rural areas. There are better ways to spend your money to cover risks than batteries. Maybe if you were getting a battery for other reasons, or as a luxury if you are wealthy enough.

toast0 2y ago
I think if you have a big enough time of use differential, and you have significant use during peak pricing, you can justify a local battery system for peak shaving and get backup power 'for free' or vice versa. 12-24 hours would have outlasted any outage I've experienced, until I moved to my current place, but it has a propane fueled whole house generator (and low utility rates with no time of use component; i haven't attempted the math, but I'm pretty sure running from my generator is way more expensive than utility power... OTOH, I've had many utility failures and only one generator failure (12v battery failed due to charger failure))
- simfree 2y ago
  With a battery, you could run your generator at peak efficiency when it's running, and idle it otherwise, significantly reducing your running costs.
  - toast0 2y ago
    Yeah, but even at peak efficiency, I don't think $/kWh on propane is going to be better than $/kWh from my utility. A battery system would be nice though, all things considered, so I could run the generator for fewer hours during an outage: only running the generator when my demand is high or the battery needs to charge would reduce the time spent at low load where efficiency is poor.
    - robocat 2y ago
      > so I could run the generator for fewer hours during an outage: only running the generator when my demand is high or the battery needs to charge would reduce the time spent at low load where efficiency is poor. There is little point worrying about marginal efficiency when power is out because saving a few dollars over a few hours is not worth optimising for. - High fixed costs (batteries & inverter) would dominate small operating costs (propane, wear&tear).
      - toast0 2y ago
        Marginal efficiency could allow for longer system runtime with the stored fuel, though. That would be important if fuel deliveries were unavailable, and since utility outages (for me) correlate with poor weather that causes poor road conditions, it seems like a reasonable thing to consider. Also, I think maybe a battery supplied inverter would give me less wobbly power than I get at low load --- I'm pretty sensitive to flickery lighting. Probably not worth it though at the moment. I suspect it would be simpler and lower cost to double my fuel storage capacity. Lived experience says in 6 years, the maximum duration outage was less than 3 days, and my storage capacity is plenty good for that.
        robocat 2y ago
        From your past comments I think you are near Seattle, and that area looks fairly red on the USGS national seismic hazard map! > the maximum duration outage was less than 3 days Past performance is no guarantee of future results! My semi-rural parents were at one end of the faultline of the Canterbury earthquake and my sister lives on a rural property on top of the Kaikoura earthquake. If you are in an earthquake zone, my lived experience has been that planning for more than a weeks disruption is very worthwhile. They both have wood burners and had months of firewood so heating was fine. They used gas cookers for a while. Both have septic tanks and both had non-powered water supplies (no electric powered wells - they had tanks fed from roof and hillside). I think my sister lost a couple of chest freezers of meat because power was out. Many people had no serviced power for an extended period of time. My sister lost their ADSL internet (their property has zero cellphone coverage). She'd be okay now with her Starlink. After an earthquake, you cannot buy a generator (they are all sold quickly). Getting gas deliveries might be difficult (bridges and roads were fucked near my sisters). I will instal solar with batteries and I live in a city. Power, sewage and water were out in many parts of Christchurch for a long time after the Christchurch earthquake. I'm no prepper. I am just happy to hedge my insurance bets if the price is right! Then again: after three major earthquakes I would hope we all learn a little... If you're visiting NZ then come visit.
mjevans 2y ago
Nearby site generator? Diesel or Natural Gas, depending on reliability during power outages?
askvictor 2y ago
Depends what you need to do with that. Sure, you can't 'live normally' on battery power for too long, but if you prioritise things, your battery can last for a much longer time. Fridge/freezer to prevent spoilage, phone/laptop charger for comms, a couple of lights, a microwave oven. Heating/cooling is tricky as that's a _big_ draw, but there are ways to be efficient with that too.
- toast0 2y ago
  > phone/laptop charger for comms You may not need to do that for long, depending where you live. My wired ISP does not provide service if there's no utility power at their box down the street. The cell towers provide service for about 2-4 hours. And after that, I've got inbound only comms (radio / tv).
mschuster91 2y ago
> Maybe if you were getting a battery for other reasons, or as a luxury if you are wealthy enough. Batteries are cheap. A 5 kWh battery storage pack can be had for ~1500€ these days, that's enough to ride at least the fridge, freezer and LED lighting for a day or two through a major event. In rural areas, add a small 1-2 kW generator and a transfer switch for another few hundred euros, and now you're completely set even for larger outages.
- robocat 2y ago
  If you're buying a generator, why bother spending 1500€ more? Plus you are ignoring the cost of a charger and inverter. I found a cheap 5kWh wall unit includes everything for $4,350.00 NZD (things are more expensive at our edge of the world). Median after tax pay in New Zealand is a bit over $52,000 per year. I don't consider nearly a months earnings to be "cheap". Maybe you are just wealthy?
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > If you're buying a generator, why bother spending 1500€ more? You can use a battery pack not just for emergency storage but also to store energy in cheap times (i.e. at noon) and draw from it at expensive rate times. Of course that requires a variable-rate tariff, but these are getting rolled out even in Europe. > Plus you are ignoring the cost of a charger and inverter. Indeed, you're right (my bad, mis-read an offer), but even then - a full system, including battery pack, controller and an inverter that can additionally be fed from a solar panel is just 2.500€. > I don't consider nearly a months earnings to be "cheap". Maybe you are just wealthy? Distribute the 2500€ across 20 years of lifetime and it's 10€ a month, and that's before the potential for savings you can get by attaching a solar panel. Yes, a (relatively) large upfront investment if you are in remote places like NZ where everything is expensive, but in Europe or the US? Almost a no-brainer, assuming you have a place to install it. [1] https://www.fm-solar.de/batteriespeicher/batteriespeicher-pv-0-mwst/afore-1-phasiger-hybrid-wechselrichter-3-6kw-5kw-pv-solar-batteriespeicher-0-mwst_531999_14659/ https://www.fm-solar.de/batteriespeicher/batteriespeicher-pv...

TechnoTopian 2y ago

We already have those batteries: Electric Vehicles. We just need some kind of vehicle-to-grid standardization.

bagels 2y ago
What happens when the power goes out when your car is not charged, or if you want to drive somewhere during a power outage?