27 ms·

Squatters take over Gordon Ramsay's London pub

35 points by darth_avocado 3y ago

notatoad 3y ago
>The Kitchen Nightmares host unsuccessfully attempted to free himself from the lease in a legal battle at the High Court in 2015. i'm guessing it's been vacant since at least then? There needs to be some mechanism for communities to reclaim spaces like this. they have value to a town, and leaving them vacant has a cost. i'm not sure giving them over to squatters is the right solution, but there needs to be consequences for property owners who harm a community by taking up space and ensuring it provides zero value to anybody by leaving it vacant.
- prepend 3y ago
  The property owner pays taxes, right? So the mechanism now is that investors don’t like to pay taxes and expenses without income to offset. I don’t know if the UK has eminent domain, but in the US the city can use eminent domain to purchase and do something. But in this case, I think if anyone wanted that property, they would purchase it. So it’s a bit of a tough problem to fix by government intervention. And Gordon Ramsey restaurants are pretty luxury, so it’s not like there’s some essential gap by this pub being empty until someone wants to purchase the space.
  - notatoad 3y ago
    >The property owner pays taxes, right? My understanding is that they do not, for a listed building that is vacant.
    - CydeWeys 3y ago
      Well that's an easy fix right there. In the US you pay property taxes regardless.
      - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
        Not exactly. I mean, in the US, as far as I know in all/most jurisdictions you don't get a different tax rate depending on whether the property is vacant or not. But in many places you can get a sizable property tax deduction for historic designated properties, sometimes equal to 100% of the value of the structure. Note that in the UK "listed building" means the property is registered as being historically significant, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listed_building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listed_building.
        CydeWeys 3y ago
        That's pretty rare though, especially in the US. And generally afaik, historic listings here impose a cost on the homeowner but not a benefit (i.e. a tax break).
    - prepend 3y ago
      That seems odd as in the UK property taxes are based on ownership, not vacancy. What makes you think vacant properties aren’t subject to taxes?
      - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
        The exemption for vacant buildings only applies to listed buildings in the UK. E.g. https://www.clearway.co.uk/news/does-a-landlord-have-to-pay-business-rates-on-an-empty-property/ https://www.clearway.co.uk/news/does-a-landlord-have-to-pay-... : > If your commercial property belongs to one or more of the following categories, you’ll be eligible for an extended period of relief for business rates, provided that your property is fully empty and not in use: ... > If your building is a listed building, you will only begin paying business rates once the property is occupied once again
- wanderinghogan 3y ago
  That pub closed last month according to https://whatpub.com/pubs/NLD/5989/york-albany-london https://whatpub.com/pubs/NLD/5989/york-albany-london
- hacker_9 3y ago
  Google reviews from 10 months ago, so at least active till then
- zhivota 3y ago
  Double the taxes every year it's vacant.
blindriver 3y ago
It's unbelievable that squatting isn't a criminal offense. I saw someone solving this problem by subsequently leasing the squatted premise to someone else, and then occupying the residence. Because the person wasn't the owner but a renter they had more rights than the landlord. I wonder if this is the right solution for all of these squatters.
- barfard 3y ago
  you gotta outsquat the squatters https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-03-12/out-squatted-handyman-flash-shelton-will-squat-with-you-squatters-until-they-leave https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-03-12/out-squa...
- lupire 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
    So when they finally find a buyer or someone to take the lease, the squatters will peacefully move out?
    - southerntofu 3y ago
      You're talking about wildly different situations. If the owners wanted to lease the place for a fair price, it would never be empty long enough to be squatted. Most squatters are actually looking to rent a place but can't afford it because of bloodsucking landowners letting apartments to rot empty to drive the prices up by creating artificial scarcity in the housing market. As for finding new speculators to buy the place, that's also complicated. I mean, mostly because selling an occupied place will drive its value down and certain shark-like speculators specialize in buying occupied homes for pennies to make a huge margin. But there are other factors. But more than anything, squatters are people. People who need a home. They can be discussed/reasoned/bargained with. In the worst case, a civil suit will get them evicted after some time even if they'd not like to move out.
cactusplant7374 3y ago
Could this possibly lead to a new Gordon Ramsey series?
- neglesaks 3y ago
  "Squatting Nightmares"
ibaikov 3y ago
> Signed by "The Occupiers", the notice ... claimed any attempt to enter the premises without their permission was a criminal offence and could result in a prison sentence or fine. This is insane that squatting is not a criminal offense and that they can even argue that forceful eviction by the owner would be a criminal offense
- southerntofu 3y ago
  It is by no means insane, especially if you consider the broader legal status. It's illegal to break into places, and it's illegal to occupy people's homes. What is called squatting refers to occupying empty/abandoned places, and it would be insane to make that a criminal offense.
  - prepend 3y ago
    Trespassing is a criminal offense, right?
    - _n_b_ 3y ago
      In the UK, it’s a civil matter in almost all cases.
  - bayindirh 3y ago
    You mean that if I have a place and leave it empty for any reason, then it can be squatted, and this is perfectly legal? If yes, this is unbelievable and insane, yes.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - KineticLensman 3y ago
      IIUC, a UK place of residence cannot be squatted but a business can. In either case, damage can be prosecuted
    - 3y ago
hacker_9 3y ago
Property law is abysmal in the UK, the fact that the squatters stuck up a sign on the wall naming their rights to occupy, just shows what a joke it is. I dont agree with property being left empty, but there is due process to these things, and the average worker has to suffer through all of it to even get one home. If no one is buying at the current price then thats the market saying the fair price is lower, and perhaps it should just go to auction. I'm sure it's pocket change to Ramsey, but it set's an ugly precedent letting this go forth. If you sit on a train without a ticket it's a jailable offence. How is breaking into someone's property and living there not completely illegal? It's completely inconsistent and squatting is a real problem here.
- echelon_musk 3y ago
  > pocket change to Ramsey He does not own the property.
- 4ndrewl 3y ago
  Ugly precedent? Squatting, and more generally adverse possession laws have been around for literally centuries? https://www.gov.uk/squatting-law/squatters-rights-to-property https://www.gov.uk/squatting-law/squatters-rights-to-propert...
psychlops 3y ago
If property isn't protected by laws and citizens aren't left with any recourse, the results will be ugly.
- popf1 3y ago
  It isn't ... look up civil forfeiture.
hankchinaski 3y ago
Im sure there is a “squatter removal agency” that would take care of this for a few grand
echelon_musk 3y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40032832 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40032832
advisedwang 3y ago
Lots of comments here complaining about the fact that squatting is allowed. But the property seems to have been empty for years. It's hard for me to be sympathetic to the right to leave a property completely vacant and unused.
- lolinder 3y ago
  The property was functioning as a pub until March of this year: https://whatpub.com/pubs/NLD/5989/york-albany-london https://whatpub.com/pubs/NLD/5989/york-albany-london The squatters seem to have taken possession less than a month after it was closed.
  - advisedwang 3y ago
    Thank you for adding some real info!
jmyeet 3y ago
People need to understand the history of squatting. It has served a useful historical purpose. Even after WW2, it was unclear who owned what and if they were still alive so squatting became a way to reclaim abandoned property. Even in the wake of the GFC, we've had unclear ownership on houses taht were foreclosed on (sometimes legally, sometimes not) where the foreclosing firm didn't have clear ownership of the debt and may have just gone out of business anyway. I, for one, am more interested in people having shelter than I am with a house sitting empty for decades because it has no heirs or the true owners own so many properties they don't even notice. Yet squatting can be (and is) weaponized with fake leases that turn the issue into a civil complaint with all that delays that entails. Squatters are getting sophisticated by finding out details of the owner to make their forged lease seem more realistic. Which brings us to the real problems: 1. Housing is unaffordable. Squatting is a symptom of unaffordable and/or unavailable housing; and 2. Private property (as opposed to personal property) as a form of wealth creation is fundamentally broken and incompatible with affordable housing.
go88faxme 3y ago
This is why in Asia, local gangsters/mafias/triads/yakuzas exist to solve this kind of problems. Usually it start with intimidation to squatters directly. Then doxing. Then intimidation of the occupiers families (even living across different countries). Then assassinations (after being tortured for a week - std is 7 days but can go a month). Police usually stay out of this kind of dispute as long as it stays within intended targets (families counts as included). Europeans and Americans are a bit primitive as they rely on "laws". Asians typically had gone thru this millenia ago and settle with the triad system as it works better than government involvement.

35 points by darth_avocado 3y ago

>The Kitchen Nightmares host unsuccessfully attempted to free himself from the lease in a legal battle at the High Court in 2015. i'm guessing it's been vacant since at least then? There needs to be some mechanism for communities to reclaim spaces like this. they have value to a town, and leaving them vacant has a cost. i'm not sure giving them over to squatters is the right solution, but there needs to be consequences for property owners who harm a community by taking up space and ensuring it provides zero value to anybody by leaving it vacant.

prepend 3y ago
The property owner pays taxes, right? So the mechanism now is that investors don’t like to pay taxes and expenses without income to offset. I don’t know if the UK has eminent domain, but in the US the city can use eminent domain to purchase and do something. But in this case, I think if anyone wanted that property, they would purchase it. So it’s a bit of a tough problem to fix by government intervention. And Gordon Ramsey restaurants are pretty luxury, so it’s not like there’s some essential gap by this pub being empty until someone wants to purchase the space.
- notatoad 3y ago
  >The property owner pays taxes, right? My understanding is that they do not, for a listed building that is vacant.
  - CydeWeys 3y ago
    Well that's an easy fix right there. In the US you pay property taxes regardless.
    - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      Not exactly. I mean, in the US, as far as I know in all/most jurisdictions you don't get a different tax rate depending on whether the property is vacant or not. But in many places you can get a sizable property tax deduction for historic designated properties, sometimes equal to 100% of the value of the structure. Note that in the UK "listed building" means the property is registered as being historically significant, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listed_building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listed_building.
      - CydeWeys 3y ago
        That's pretty rare though, especially in the US. And generally afaik, historic listings here impose a cost on the homeowner but not a benefit (i.e. a tax break).
  - prepend 3y ago
    That seems odd as in the UK property taxes are based on ownership, not vacancy. What makes you think vacant properties aren’t subject to taxes?
    - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      The exemption for vacant buildings only applies to listed buildings in the UK. E.g. https://www.clearway.co.uk/news/does-a-landlord-have-to-pay-business-rates-on-an-empty-property/ https://www.clearway.co.uk/news/does-a-landlord-have-to-pay-... : > If your commercial property belongs to one or more of the following categories, you’ll be eligible for an extended period of relief for business rates, provided that your property is fully empty and not in use: ... > If your building is a listed building, you will only begin paying business rates once the property is occupied once again
wanderinghogan 3y ago
That pub closed last month according to https://whatpub.com/pubs/NLD/5989/york-albany-london https://whatpub.com/pubs/NLD/5989/york-albany-london
hacker_9 3y ago
Google reviews from 10 months ago, so at least active till then
zhivota 3y ago
Double the taxes every year it's vacant.

blindriver 3y ago

It's unbelievable that squatting isn't a criminal offense. I saw someone solving this problem by subsequently leasing the squatted premise to someone else, and then occupying the residence. Because the person wasn't the owner but a renter they had more rights than the landlord. I wonder if this is the right solution for all of these squatters.

barfard 3y ago
you gotta outsquat the squatters https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-03-12/out-squatted-handyman-flash-shelton-will-squat-with-you-squatters-until-they-leave https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-03-12/out-squa...
lupire 3y ago
[flagged]
- 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
  So when they finally find a buyer or someone to take the lease, the squatters will peacefully move out?
  - southerntofu 3y ago
    You're talking about wildly different situations. If the owners wanted to lease the place for a fair price, it would never be empty long enough to be squatted. Most squatters are actually looking to rent a place but can't afford it because of bloodsucking landowners letting apartments to rot empty to drive the prices up by creating artificial scarcity in the housing market. As for finding new speculators to buy the place, that's also complicated. I mean, mostly because selling an occupied place will drive its value down and certain shark-like speculators specialize in buying occupied homes for pennies to make a huge margin. But there are other factors. But more than anything, squatters are people. People who need a home. They can be discussed/reasoned/bargained with. In the worst case, a civil suit will get them evicted after some time even if they'd not like to move out.

cactusplant7374 3y ago

Could this possibly lead to a new Gordon Ramsey series?

neglesaks 3y ago
"Squatting Nightmares"

ibaikov 3y ago

> Signed by "The Occupiers", the notice ... claimed any attempt to enter the premises without their permission was a criminal offence and could result in a prison sentence or fine. This is insane that squatting is not a criminal offense and that they can even argue that forceful eviction by the owner would be a criminal offense

southerntofu 3y ago
It is by no means insane, especially if you consider the broader legal status. It's illegal to break into places, and it's illegal to occupy people's homes. What is called squatting refers to occupying empty/abandoned places, and it would be insane to make that a criminal offense.
- prepend 3y ago
  Trespassing is a criminal offense, right?
  - _n_b_ 3y ago
    In the UK, it’s a civil matter in almost all cases.
- bayindirh 3y ago
  You mean that if I have a place and leave it empty for any reason, then it can be squatted, and this is perfectly legal? If yes, this is unbelievable and insane, yes.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - KineticLensman 3y ago
    IIUC, a UK place of residence cannot be squatted but a business can. In either case, damage can be prosecuted
  - 3y ago

hacker_9 3y ago

Property law is abysmal in the UK, the fact that the squatters stuck up a sign on the wall naming their rights to occupy, just shows what a joke it is. I dont agree with property being left empty, but there is due process to these things, and the average worker has to suffer through all of it to even get one home. If no one is buying at the current price then thats the market saying the fair price is lower, and perhaps it should just go to auction. I'm sure it's pocket change to Ramsey, but it set's an ugly precedent letting this go forth. If you sit on a train without a ticket it's a jailable offence. How is breaking into someone's property and living there not completely illegal? It's completely inconsistent and squatting is a real problem here.

echelon_musk 3y ago
> pocket change to Ramsey He does not own the property.
4ndrewl 3y ago
Ugly precedent? Squatting, and more generally adverse possession laws have been around for literally centuries? https://www.gov.uk/squatting-law/squatters-rights-to-property https://www.gov.uk/squatting-law/squatters-rights-to-propert...

psychlops 3y ago

If property isn't protected by laws and citizens aren't left with any recourse, the results will be ugly.

popf1 3y ago
It isn't ... look up civil forfeiture.

hankchinaski 3y ago

Im sure there is a “squatter removal agency” that would take care of this for a few grand

echelon_musk 3y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40032832 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40032832

advisedwang 3y ago

Lots of comments here complaining about the fact that squatting is allowed. But the property seems to have been empty for years. It's hard for me to be sympathetic to the right to leave a property completely vacant and unused.

lolinder 3y ago
The property was functioning as a pub until March of this year: https://whatpub.com/pubs/NLD/5989/york-albany-london https://whatpub.com/pubs/NLD/5989/york-albany-london The squatters seem to have taken possession less than a month after it was closed.
- advisedwang 3y ago
  Thank you for adding some real info!

jmyeet 3y ago

People need to understand the history of squatting. It has served a useful historical purpose. Even after WW2, it was unclear who owned what and if they were still alive so squatting became a way to reclaim abandoned property. Even in the wake of the GFC, we've had unclear ownership on houses taht were foreclosed on (sometimes legally, sometimes not) where the foreclosing firm didn't have clear ownership of the debt and may have just gone out of business anyway. I, for one, am more interested in people having shelter than I am with a house sitting empty for decades because it has no heirs or the true owners own so many properties they don't even notice. Yet squatting can be (and is) weaponized with fake leases that turn the issue into a civil complaint with all that delays that entails. Squatters are getting sophisticated by finding out details of the owner to make their forged lease seem more realistic. Which brings us to the real problems: 1. Housing is unaffordable. Squatting is a symptom of unaffordable and/or unavailable housing; and 2. Private property (as opposed to personal property) as a form of wealth creation is fundamentally broken and incompatible with affordable housing.

go88faxme 3y ago

This is why in Asia, local gangsters/mafias/triads/yakuzas exist to solve this kind of problems. Usually it start with intimidation to squatters directly. Then doxing. Then intimidation of the occupiers families (even living across different countries). Then assassinations (after being tortured for a week - std is 7 days but can go a month). Police usually stay out of this kind of dispute as long as it stays within intended targets (families counts as included). Europeans and Americans are a bit primitive as they rely on "laws". Asians typically had gone thru this millenia ago and settle with the triad system as it works better than government involvement.