4 ms·

what about people who worked their asses off to pay their student loans? if we give/forgive one group but not others, what sort of message does this send to th

by spxneo 3y ago

what about people who worked their asses off to pay their student loans? if we give/forgive one group but not others, what sort of message does this send to the rest who don't benefit from populist policies?

thunky 3y ago
What about the people who never went to college because they couldn't afford it. They're the ones that are really getting left with nothing.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nerdjon 3y ago
Congrats. You’re were out of debt before this. And you’re still out of debt now. How about we let others at least not be underwater so the too can be out of student loan debt. Which if you bothered to read it is the focus this time around. Is it perfect? No. Ideally you also shouldn’t have had to work your ass off to pay off these loans. But let’s not ignore trying to fix the current bad state of things just because some people managed to get out. It’s like saying, well some people got out of a cult mostly fine so why do we bother to go after cults at all?
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  > And you’re still out of debt now. But I am newly impoverished by the higher taxes, inflation, and/or reduced spending on other government programs that is required to pay for the forgiveness program.
  - spxneo 3y ago
    You are trying to justify and politicize the dereliction of personal responsibility on the grounds that others can foot the bill that they aren't responsible for. do you have dirty laundry too that you want people who have the time to do it for you because you are incapable of taking on that responsibility. you argument is that because interest rate and inflation is a lot higher than when you took out the loan, you should not share that responsibility (it should be others) which is just lazy and incredibly childish.
    - EarthAmbassador 3y ago
      Personal responsibility? That’s nonsense ideology. If one has the means, all so-called bourgeois middle-class morality can be avoided, and is by people with the means to do so.
  - whateveracct 3y ago
    what higher taxes?
    - Georgelemental 3y ago
      Biden's order doesn't propose any (and legally can't), but any shortfall in government revenue will have to be made up somehow eventually.
      - whateveracct 3y ago
        With Biden at least, he's held pretty firm to not raise taxes on the middle or upper-middle class. So like $364k married filing jointly even (my bracket). If I ever do make enough to get hit with a Biden platform tax hike..I think I'm doing pretty okay :)
- spxneo 3y ago
  > How about we let others at least not be underwater so the too can be out of student loan debt That is a very selfish statement. I was burdened with student loan debt for almost a decade, nobody cared that I was underwater, so why should we suddenly start caring for you and reward your poor financial decisions? Should we start bailing you out because of your poor crypto investments too? Why does your financial problems need to be socialized but not others? You are arguing for absolving responsibility. You borrow someone's money you must pay it back.
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    > You borrow someone's money you must pay it back. Why? Unsecured loans are servitude. And it just inflates the cost of the thing lended for. I don't think one can argue for usury from some sort of moral angle.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Unsecured loans are servitude Credit cards are servitude?
      - rightbyte 3y ago
        I guess you can argue it is not servitude if the unsecured loan is small enough that it can be repayed if the borrower wants to.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > you can argue it is not servitude On the basis of nobody being compelled to do labour, yes.
        rightbyte 3y ago
        Ye. Maybe my wording with 'servitude' was just bad though.
  - 3y ago
- gardenhedge 3y ago
  Getting out of that debt has ongoing consequences though. Not being able to afford a car and therefore limited job opportunities, having to buy a smaller home and therefore not being able to grow your family, etc. It's not hard to think of more examples.
dashundchen 3y ago
As someone who paid off their student loans in full, I'm happy for those who are getting loan forgiveness. Trump's 2017 tax bill gave away trillions mostly to rich business owners. Another trillion was dumped on them during COVID via PPP. So if we can forgive a fraction of the debt for the working class that came of age when a degree was sold as a requirement for entry into the middle class, then great, all for it. I know people who were required to get an MS in education to teach. The only option for certain education specialties in the region was a private school. Teaching is hardly a lucrative career, the public service they provide is necessary, forgive the debt via PSLF. The government makes policy all the time that benefits certain groups, that's reality
- spxneo 3y ago
  this isn't about politics but basic ownership of personal financial decisions. nobody forced you to go and take out a student loan. you did it. politics shouldn't even be a factor here. we are arguing for basic responsibility that all adults in society must respect not at the whims of populist Presidents who only cares about votes. if tomorrow Biden told young people to start taking drugs because we will socialize the cost, you would justify it too.
  - sseagull 3y ago
    If someone takes out more than they can pay back, it’s their problem. If millions of people do it, there is a systemic problem that needs addressing. It can be both things at once.
    - nerdjon 3y ago
      Thank you! you have said it the best way that I have seen yet. No one is talking about removing personal responsibility. However when a pattern has emerged we have to look at how we got here in the first place and realize that there is likely something fundamentally wrong. If it is found that there is that fundamental issue, the government has stepped in many times to address systemic issues, bailouts, etc. (I fully acknowledge that they have not done this equally, but that's a separate topic) Besides, if you really just want to boil this down to numbers. People actually having money to spend instead of it just being stuck disappearing towards loans that they will never pay back, will have a positive impact on the economy.
itishappy 3y ago
My loans are paid off, and I'm getting the message that higher education is probably too expensive here. What sort of message are you getting?
silverquiet 3y ago
Oftentimes when I criticize Plutocrats for I am told that I should not be jealous and a rising tide lifts all boats. Perhaps this is the tide lifting the boats of these debtors and you should not be jealous of them.
Gibbon1 3y ago
This exactly. Another thing that annoys me is they legalized pot. Seems like a good idea in theory. But what about all the people that went to prison when it was illegal. Imagine having served five years in prison for selling pot and there is now guys selling it out of store fronts. How is that fair? And another is immunotherapy. Someone I know got lung cancer and immunotherapy saved her life. Which is really unfair to my other friend that died of lung cancer twenty five years ago.
- leereeves 3y ago
  That's not a fair comparison at all. Making people who paid off their loans now pay off other people's loans as well (through taxes) is more like sending the first guy back to prison because the second guy is selling it from a store front.
  - Gibbon1 3y ago
    Friend of mine got his engineering degree when the Feds still gave out grants. So he didn't pay a thing. I went to a state school with no tuition I just had to pay student fees and for books. All told it cost me $15k out of pocket. Not per year for the whole 5 years.
    - leereeves 3y ago
      I got two masters degrees a few years ago for $10k each. It's still possible to get an education without spending a fortune. And the feds still give out grants: https://studentaid.gov/sites/default/files/federal-grant-programs.pdf https://studentaid.gov/sites/default/files/federal-grant-pro...

by spxneo 3y ago

thunky 3y ago

What about the people who never went to college because they couldn't afford it. They're the ones that are really getting left with nothing.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

nerdjon 3y ago

Congrats. You’re were out of debt before this. And you’re still out of debt now. How about we let others at least not be underwater so the too can be out of student loan debt. Which if you bothered to read it is the focus this time around. Is it perfect? No. Ideally you also shouldn’t have had to work your ass off to pay off these loans. But let’s not ignore trying to fix the current bad state of things just because some people managed to get out. It’s like saying, well some people got out of a cult mostly fine so why do we bother to go after cults at all?

Georgelemental 3y ago
> And you’re still out of debt now. But I am newly impoverished by the higher taxes, inflation, and/or reduced spending on other government programs that is required to pay for the forgiveness program.
- spxneo 3y ago
  You are trying to justify and politicize the dereliction of personal responsibility on the grounds that others can foot the bill that they aren't responsible for. do you have dirty laundry too that you want people who have the time to do it for you because you are incapable of taking on that responsibility. you argument is that because interest rate and inflation is a lot higher than when you took out the loan, you should not share that responsibility (it should be others) which is just lazy and incredibly childish.
  - EarthAmbassador 3y ago
    Personal responsibility? That’s nonsense ideology. If one has the means, all so-called bourgeois middle-class morality can be avoided, and is by people with the means to do so.
- whateveracct 3y ago
  what higher taxes?
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    Biden's order doesn't propose any (and legally can't), but any shortfall in government revenue will have to be made up somehow eventually.
    - whateveracct 3y ago
      With Biden at least, he's held pretty firm to not raise taxes on the middle or upper-middle class. So like $364k married filing jointly even (my bracket). If I ever do make enough to get hit with a Biden platform tax hike..I think I'm doing pretty okay :)
spxneo 3y ago
> How about we let others at least not be underwater so the too can be out of student loan debt That is a very selfish statement. I was burdened with student loan debt for almost a decade, nobody cared that I was underwater, so why should we suddenly start caring for you and reward your poor financial decisions? Should we start bailing you out because of your poor crypto investments too? Why does your financial problems need to be socialized but not others? You are arguing for absolving responsibility. You borrow someone's money you must pay it back.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  > You borrow someone's money you must pay it back. Why? Unsecured loans are servitude. And it just inflates the cost of the thing lended for. I don't think one can argue for usury from some sort of moral angle.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Unsecured loans are servitude Credit cards are servitude?
    - rightbyte 3y ago
      I guess you can argue it is not servitude if the unsecured loan is small enough that it can be repayed if the borrower wants to.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > you can argue it is not servitude On the basis of nobody being compelled to do labour, yes.
        rightbyte 3y ago
        Ye. Maybe my wording with 'servitude' was just bad though.
- 3y ago
gardenhedge 3y ago
Getting out of that debt has ongoing consequences though. Not being able to afford a car and therefore limited job opportunities, having to buy a smaller home and therefore not being able to grow your family, etc. It's not hard to think of more examples.

dashundchen 3y ago

As someone who paid off their student loans in full, I'm happy for those who are getting loan forgiveness. Trump's 2017 tax bill gave away trillions mostly to rich business owners. Another trillion was dumped on them during COVID via PPP. So if we can forgive a fraction of the debt for the working class that came of age when a degree was sold as a requirement for entry into the middle class, then great, all for it. I know people who were required to get an MS in education to teach. The only option for certain education specialties in the region was a private school. Teaching is hardly a lucrative career, the public service they provide is necessary, forgive the debt via PSLF. The government makes policy all the time that benefits certain groups, that's reality

spxneo 3y ago
this isn't about politics but basic ownership of personal financial decisions. nobody forced you to go and take out a student loan. you did it. politics shouldn't even be a factor here. we are arguing for basic responsibility that all adults in society must respect not at the whims of populist Presidents who only cares about votes. if tomorrow Biden told young people to start taking drugs because we will socialize the cost, you would justify it too.
- sseagull 3y ago
  If someone takes out more than they can pay back, it’s their problem. If millions of people do it, there is a systemic problem that needs addressing. It can be both things at once.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    Thank you! you have said it the best way that I have seen yet. No one is talking about removing personal responsibility. However when a pattern has emerged we have to look at how we got here in the first place and realize that there is likely something fundamentally wrong. If it is found that there is that fundamental issue, the government has stepped in many times to address systemic issues, bailouts, etc. (I fully acknowledge that they have not done this equally, but that's a separate topic) Besides, if you really just want to boil this down to numbers. People actually having money to spend instead of it just being stuck disappearing towards loans that they will never pay back, will have a positive impact on the economy.

itishappy 3y ago

My loans are paid off, and I'm getting the message that higher education is probably too expensive here. What sort of message are you getting?

silverquiet 3y ago

Oftentimes when I criticize Plutocrats for I am told that I should not be jealous and a rising tide lifts all boats. Perhaps this is the tide lifting the boats of these debtors and you should not be jealous of them.

Gibbon1 3y ago

This exactly. Another thing that annoys me is they legalized pot. Seems like a good idea in theory. But what about all the people that went to prison when it was illegal. Imagine having served five years in prison for selling pot and there is now guys selling it out of store fronts. How is that fair? And another is immunotherapy. Someone I know got lung cancer and immunotherapy saved her life. Which is really unfair to my other friend that died of lung cancer twenty five years ago.

leereeves 3y ago
That's not a fair comparison at all. Making people who paid off their loans now pay off other people's loans as well (through taxes) is more like sending the first guy back to prison because the second guy is selling it from a store front.
- Gibbon1 3y ago
  Friend of mine got his engineering degree when the Feds still gave out grants. So he didn't pay a thing. I went to a state school with no tuition I just had to pay student fees and for books. All told it cost me $15k out of pocket. Not per year for the whole 5 years.
  - leereeves 3y ago
    I got two masters degrees a few years ago for $10k each. It's still possible to get an education without spending a fortune. And the feds still give out grants: https://studentaid.gov/sites/default/files/federal-grant-programs.pdf https://studentaid.gov/sites/default/files/federal-grant-pro...