4 ms·

Potentially controversial opinion, but perhaps it is exactly the immigrants who are enabling the dysfunction to continue? I imagine tougher decisions would hav

Potentially controversial opinion, but perhaps it is exactly the immigrants who are enabling the dysfunction to continue? I imagine tougher decisions would have been made to balance doctor quality of life with patient outcomes without immigrants taking whatever abuse the current system throws at them.

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
Ah, yes. Literal victim blaming.
- georgeburdell 3y ago
  They voluntarily immigrated to the country to take highly skilled jobs and are free to leave at any time. They are not victims; they are willing participants in an exploitative system.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    You're kinda ignoring the part where the exploitative system is global, and those people are coming from places that are on the more exploited end of it. The reason why they come to take those jobs is because of the quality of life that comes with that, that is impossible to achieve in their home country. And the reason for the latter is largely because their countries have historically been exploited by the one they're now coming to, and in many cases, are still being economically exploited in various ways (including directly sponsoring local political corruption by foreign businesses). If you don't want them to come to your country to chase a better life, raise the living standard in their country.
  - adrianN 3y ago
    People with limited choices can still be victims even if they volunteer.
- dj_gitmo 3y ago
  The governments set the immigration policies. They probably think it’s easier to import doctors than fix the problems with medical schools, hospitals, doctors guilds, payment systems, ect… It is very uncharitable to view this as an attack on immigrants.
zmgsabst 3y ago
If you allow the capital class to import new workers when the current batch get too “uppity”, why would you expect conditions to improve? This is happening across society, and I consider it a tragedy the people focused on race and sex have taken all the oxygen out of the room for a much needed discussion on class. I’d even go so far as to say it’s encouraged (eg, BlockRock ESG) as part of a “divide and conquer” strategy by the capital class.
dj_gitmo 3y ago
This is getting downvoted like it is some horrible bigoted remark, and I don’t think it is. It seems reasonable to me to say that immigration can paper over problems.
burnished 3y ago
Are you suggesting that the solution is that immigrants just make better decisions?
- somnic 3y ago
  If you're on a work visa and need a employer to sponsor you to stay in the country, it's pretty hard to quit if you're being taken advantage of. Being ineligible for unemployment payments or other support doesn't exactly help. Immigrants are often making the best decisions they can given the constraints of the situation, but it's not good for them or for local workers if immigrant workers are an exploitable underclass.
obscurette 3y ago
While somewhat rudely expressed, but in principle I'd agree. There are people who call it modern day imperialism – it's the draining high performant brains from other countries what allows western societies to keep doing a lot of things.
- int_19h 3y ago
  As an immigrant myself, I've heard this take a lot. I despise it because it treats us as a resource that you can allocate here or there as needed to solve problems, ignoring the person themselves and their needs and wants. What if the "high performant brain" does not want to sacrifice their own well-being for the sake of "improving their country"? If "anti-imperialist" Westerners truly care so much about brain drain negatively affecting other countries, they should go live in those countries themselves and provide their services there for the sake of greater good. But very few actually do so, and even fewer are willing to do it on any kind of non-temporary basis.
  - obscurette 3y ago
    Don't be offended. I completely understand that in personal level the view is very different. It's normal that in personal level you make your own choices and choose whatever is better for you personally. But it doesn't mean that a lot of people choosing whatever it's best for them are creating outcome that's better for the world. PS. I didn't say that people calling this imperialism are from west.

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago

Ah, yes. Literal victim blaming.

georgeburdell 3y ago
They voluntarily immigrated to the country to take highly skilled jobs and are free to leave at any time. They are not victims; they are willing participants in an exploitative system.
- int_19h 3y ago
  You're kinda ignoring the part where the exploitative system is global, and those people are coming from places that are on the more exploited end of it. The reason why they come to take those jobs is because of the quality of life that comes with that, that is impossible to achieve in their home country. And the reason for the latter is largely because their countries have historically been exploited by the one they're now coming to, and in many cases, are still being economically exploited in various ways (including directly sponsoring local political corruption by foreign businesses). If you don't want them to come to your country to chase a better life, raise the living standard in their country.
- adrianN 3y ago
  People with limited choices can still be victims even if they volunteer.
dj_gitmo 3y ago
The governments set the immigration policies. They probably think it’s easier to import doctors than fix the problems with medical schools, hospitals, doctors guilds, payment systems, ect… It is very uncharitable to view this as an attack on immigrants.

zmgsabst 3y ago

If you allow the capital class to import new workers when the current batch get too “uppity”, why would you expect conditions to improve? This is happening across society, and I consider it a tragedy the people focused on race and sex have taken all the oxygen out of the room for a much needed discussion on class. I’d even go so far as to say it’s encouraged (eg, BlockRock ESG) as part of a “divide and conquer” strategy by the capital class.

dj_gitmo 3y ago

This is getting downvoted like it is some horrible bigoted remark, and I don’t think it is. It seems reasonable to me to say that immigration can paper over problems.

burnished 3y ago

Are you suggesting that the solution is that immigrants just make better decisions?

somnic 3y ago
If you're on a work visa and need a employer to sponsor you to stay in the country, it's pretty hard to quit if you're being taken advantage of. Being ineligible for unemployment payments or other support doesn't exactly help. Immigrants are often making the best decisions they can given the constraints of the situation, but it's not good for them or for local workers if immigrant workers are an exploitable underclass.

obscurette 3y ago

While somewhat rudely expressed, but in principle I'd agree. There are people who call it modern day imperialism – it's the draining high performant brains from other countries what allows western societies to keep doing a lot of things.

int_19h 3y ago
As an immigrant myself, I've heard this take a lot. I despise it because it treats us as a resource that you can allocate here or there as needed to solve problems, ignoring the person themselves and their needs and wants. What if the "high performant brain" does not want to sacrifice their own well-being for the sake of "improving their country"? If "anti-imperialist" Westerners truly care so much about brain drain negatively affecting other countries, they should go live in those countries themselves and provide their services there for the sake of greater good. But very few actually do so, and even fewer are willing to do it on any kind of non-temporary basis.
- obscurette 3y ago
  Don't be offended. I completely understand that in personal level the view is very different. It's normal that in personal level you make your own choices and choose whatever is better for you personally. But it doesn't mean that a lot of people choosing whatever it's best for them are creating outcome that's better for the world. PS. I didn't say that people calling this imperialism are from west.