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As a landlord, I would not approve of this tomfoolery in any of my buildings. Safety hazards I see include: Solar panels on the roof that aren’t bolted dow; I

As a landlord, I would not approve of this tomfoolery in any of my buildings. Safety hazards I see include: Solar panels on the roof that aren’t bolted dow; I don’t care what wind speed they’re rated for. Wires running from them to the inside of the house not in conduit and not secured. A high energy battery pack not NRTL listed. Extension cords draped through the house permanently installed (within the expansive definition of permanently installed used by the NEC) In addition running the wires in through a cracked window creates an unacceptable risk of water damage. That said, it’s a cool project. Just do this in a barn you own not a house I own.

jrockway 3y ago
There is also the risk of lightning hitting the wires and causing damage indoors.
jonnycoder 3y ago
While the article probably doesn’t use UL listed equipment, I’ve found that equipment exists that does such as eg4. They run 48v which makes it legal in addition to being Ul listed. It’s typically the installation between solar panels and power inverter/converter that needs to be up to code.
earthscienceman 3y ago
"Just do this in a barn you own not a house I own." Someday we'll wonder why we thought it was a good idea to make the need for shelter into an investment vehicle. Until then, I hope people use your properties as they see fit.
- waveBidder 3y ago
  there's nothing wrong with paying someone else to maintain your dwelling and dealing with capital costs. people don't have a problem with the market solutions to the basic right to food, for the most part. The main problem comes with the unearned profit that comes from owning land that benefits from improvements made by others. tldr: land value tax and less restrictive zoning yesterday
- dylan604 3y ago
  There are a lot of people that can afford to rent a house, but would not qualify for a mortgage to buy a house. If houses were not available to rent, there would be plenty of people unable to live in a house. I'm in a fortunate situation where my landlord is not a slumlord. When things need looking into, it gets taken care of in a timely manner. I do not have any issue with someone choosing to have this as a business.
- akira2501 3y ago
  > the need for shelter into an investment vehicle. It's likely the shelter will be on this earth longer than I will? We didn't make it that way, it is that way.
  - bartvk 3y ago
    That fact alone doesn't make it into an investment vehicle. There's a set of circumstances that make it so. Low interest rates, being able to use leverage (borrow money, buy a house then rent it out), and higher-than-inflation price increase of houses.
- BHSPitMonkey 3y ago
  The GP's statement doesn't at all suggest that they're looking at this property as an investment vehicle; The house could be ROI-neutral and its owner would still not like to see it burn down from uninspected, unsafe electrical work.
- bartvk 3y ago
  Your rather carefully worked comment is being downvoted already. I agree with you, but I think that here, plenty of people have the dream of early retirement. Don't get me wrong, I like that dream too. I just have my thoughts about the current housing market, which to me has aspects of an investment market.
asdefghyk 3y ago
As a landlord how does one stop people/tenants using "under rated" extension cords ? and therefore causing a fire. How does one stop tenants using "dodgy" chargers to charge their electric bike or whatever, and the battery bank causes a fire.? Does your insurance cover these situations???
- djbusby 3y ago
  You can't stop it. You can spot it when happens and ask them to fix/remedy. Remind them of lease terms, etc. And make sure you have good insurance.
- repiret 3y ago
  I can't even stop my family that lives with me from overloading crappy extension cords; most people, including my tenants, don't know enough to avoid overloading extension cords. Frankly, all extension cords with a NEMA 5-15 or 1-15 plug should be required to either be rated for 20A, or include over-current protection; and the fuses should be shaped to prevent you from putting an over-current fuse in the fuse holder. But alas it doesn't work that way in the US. (It does in some countries). That said, I drive by all my properties periodically, and my property manager does annual walk through; large battery banks, excessive extension cords tacked to the walls, and solar panels sitting on the roof with wires run through a window would all get flagged in such a walkthrough, any my rental agreements allow me to require the tenant to correct unsafe conditions, which all of those are. And I do have good insurance. There's a pervasive believe on HN that you can't get insurance that covers variations of not-to-code, not-properly-permitted, and/or not-done-by-licensed-electrician electrical installations. There very may well be insurance that excludes these things, but its easy to get insurance that covers those things, and mine does. If my tenants do dumb-ass stuff that burns the building down, I'm covered, even if that dumb-ass stuff involves electricity.
xbmcuser 3y ago
My question for you if you are a landlord at what price would a battery and solar system would make it profitable for you to install and then sell the electricity to the tenants. With the slowdown in ev cars as well as battery production increases as well as steep fall in solar wafer prices I think we are likely to see a big surge in home battery installations in the next 2-3 years.
- justinzollars 3y ago
  This depends on the interest rate. Today there is a huge 30% federal tax credit that would take 1/3 off of any such installation. That said, the tax credit is still not enough to cover the price increases due to inflation and interest cost of financing a system. I spent a large amount of time trying to make this work this year, and it just feels foolish. You'd be buying really expensive energy just for the novelty of saying you have solar.
  - harmmonica 3y ago
    This. I had this grand plan to convert (almost) everything to electric and then install solar but it would take roughly 16 years to pay back the solar install based on our current electricity bill. Then I’ve tried to rationalize it based on added resale value, which, where we’re located, might command a small premium to the install price, but even that seems questionable and we don’t have any plan to move. It seems like there are two justifications for solar if you’re on the grid. Either you want to do right by the environment (totally good, though very pricey, reason to do it!) or your electricity costs are very high. If there are others I’d love to understand them. Maybe if you’re a prepper (not making fun) then that’s another reason.
    - coryrc 3y ago
      My FIL had a 10kw natural gas generator installed, which is negative ROI. He could have gotten solar with battery backup for a positive ROI.
      - 3y ago
pixxel 3y ago
> Rent-seeking is the act of growing one's existing wealth by manipulating the social or political environment without creating new wealth. Rent-seeking activities have negative effects on the rest of society. If you stop being a parasite perhaps one could afford a barn.
- zarathustreal 3y ago
  Despite the seeming equality, renting your property and “rent-seeking” are actually not the same thing. Housing requires maintenance, cleaning, repairs, and plenty other upkeep. The value of renting your property is not a result of manipulation of the social or political environment. Your angst is misplaced, though I feel for you. If there’s anything I can do to help let me know
russdpale 3y ago
Then give us a way to set something up.

jrockway 3y ago

There is also the risk of lightning hitting the wires and causing damage indoors.

jonnycoder 3y ago

While the article probably doesn’t use UL listed equipment, I’ve found that equipment exists that does such as eg4. They run 48v which makes it legal in addition to being Ul listed. It’s typically the installation between solar panels and power inverter/converter that needs to be up to code.

earthscienceman 3y ago

"Just do this in a barn you own not a house I own." Someday we'll wonder why we thought it was a good idea to make the need for shelter into an investment vehicle. Until then, I hope people use your properties as they see fit.

waveBidder 3y ago
there's nothing wrong with paying someone else to maintain your dwelling and dealing with capital costs. people don't have a problem with the market solutions to the basic right to food, for the most part. The main problem comes with the unearned profit that comes from owning land that benefits from improvements made by others. tldr: land value tax and less restrictive zoning yesterday
dylan604 3y ago
There are a lot of people that can afford to rent a house, but would not qualify for a mortgage to buy a house. If houses were not available to rent, there would be plenty of people unable to live in a house. I'm in a fortunate situation where my landlord is not a slumlord. When things need looking into, it gets taken care of in a timely manner. I do not have any issue with someone choosing to have this as a business.
akira2501 3y ago
> the need for shelter into an investment vehicle. It's likely the shelter will be on this earth longer than I will? We didn't make it that way, it is that way.
- bartvk 3y ago
  That fact alone doesn't make it into an investment vehicle. There's a set of circumstances that make it so. Low interest rates, being able to use leverage (borrow money, buy a house then rent it out), and higher-than-inflation price increase of houses.
BHSPitMonkey 3y ago
The GP's statement doesn't at all suggest that they're looking at this property as an investment vehicle; The house could be ROI-neutral and its owner would still not like to see it burn down from uninspected, unsafe electrical work.
bartvk 3y ago
Your rather carefully worked comment is being downvoted already. I agree with you, but I think that here, plenty of people have the dream of early retirement. Don't get me wrong, I like that dream too. I just have my thoughts about the current housing market, which to me has aspects of an investment market.

asdefghyk 3y ago

As a landlord how does one stop people/tenants using "under rated" extension cords ? and therefore causing a fire. How does one stop tenants using "dodgy" chargers to charge their electric bike or whatever, and the battery bank causes a fire.? Does your insurance cover these situations???

djbusby 3y ago
You can't stop it. You can spot it when happens and ask them to fix/remedy. Remind them of lease terms, etc. And make sure you have good insurance.
repiret 3y ago
I can't even stop my family that lives with me from overloading crappy extension cords; most people, including my tenants, don't know enough to avoid overloading extension cords. Frankly, all extension cords with a NEMA 5-15 or 1-15 plug should be required to either be rated for 20A, or include over-current protection; and the fuses should be shaped to prevent you from putting an over-current fuse in the fuse holder. But alas it doesn't work that way in the US. (It does in some countries). That said, I drive by all my properties periodically, and my property manager does annual walk through; large battery banks, excessive extension cords tacked to the walls, and solar panels sitting on the roof with wires run through a window would all get flagged in such a walkthrough, any my rental agreements allow me to require the tenant to correct unsafe conditions, which all of those are. And I do have good insurance. There's a pervasive believe on HN that you can't get insurance that covers variations of not-to-code, not-properly-permitted, and/or not-done-by-licensed-electrician electrical installations. There very may well be insurance that excludes these things, but its easy to get insurance that covers those things, and mine does. If my tenants do dumb-ass stuff that burns the building down, I'm covered, even if that dumb-ass stuff involves electricity.

xbmcuser 3y ago

My question for you if you are a landlord at what price would a battery and solar system would make it profitable for you to install and then sell the electricity to the tenants. With the slowdown in ev cars as well as battery production increases as well as steep fall in solar wafer prices I think we are likely to see a big surge in home battery installations in the next 2-3 years.

justinzollars 3y ago
This depends on the interest rate. Today there is a huge 30% federal tax credit that would take 1/3 off of any such installation. That said, the tax credit is still not enough to cover the price increases due to inflation and interest cost of financing a system. I spent a large amount of time trying to make this work this year, and it just feels foolish. You'd be buying really expensive energy just for the novelty of saying you have solar.
- harmmonica 3y ago
  This. I had this grand plan to convert (almost) everything to electric and then install solar but it would take roughly 16 years to pay back the solar install based on our current electricity bill. Then I’ve tried to rationalize it based on added resale value, which, where we’re located, might command a small premium to the install price, but even that seems questionable and we don’t have any plan to move. It seems like there are two justifications for solar if you’re on the grid. Either you want to do right by the environment (totally good, though very pricey, reason to do it!) or your electricity costs are very high. If there are others I’d love to understand them. Maybe if you’re a prepper (not making fun) then that’s another reason.
  - coryrc 3y ago
    My FIL had a 10kw natural gas generator installed, which is negative ROI. He could have gotten solar with battery backup for a positive ROI.
    - 3y ago

pixxel 3y ago

> Rent-seeking is the act of growing one's existing wealth by manipulating the social or political environment without creating new wealth. Rent-seeking activities have negative effects on the rest of society. If you stop being a parasite perhaps one could afford a barn.

zarathustreal 3y ago
Despite the seeming equality, renting your property and “rent-seeking” are actually not the same thing. Housing requires maintenance, cleaning, repairs, and plenty other upkeep. The value of renting your property is not a result of manipulation of the social or political environment. Your angst is misplaced, though I feel for you. If there’s anything I can do to help let me know

russdpale 3y ago

Then give us a way to set something up.