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But it’s not like our standard of living has remained static while we need to work more. A lot has changed. In 1960 the average single family home was 1300 squa

But it’s not like our standard of living has remained static while we need to work more. A lot has changed. In 1960 the average single family home was 1300 square feet, now it’s more than double that, and it’s packed with amazing amenities and entertainment options. What would an iPad cost in 1960? Obviously the question is kind of nonsensical and yet on the other hand, if you were to try and quantify the price of our ability to work from home, for instance, we have a way better deal going than they did in 1960. You could retort that this is the inevitable march of technological progress, but could it be the result of hard work and innovation including the hard work and innovation of women in the work force?

fulafel 3y ago
The opulent space per inhabitant (as families are also smaller) is now viewed by many as a negative in face of the climate crisis, not to mention the cost of housing and the resulting need to work more.
tossandthrow 3y ago
The main thing is, that I could actually support a household of 6 people on a single income if I was allowed to fix the comfort at the 60s level. 1. No flying on vacation and only simple camping as vacation 2. No technology: Computers, phone, television. Nothing, and no associated costs with subscriptions, etc. 3. Eat like it was the 60s, mainly potatoes (I am from Northern Europe). That said: I truly believe in the parent commenters key idea. We need to create more real prosperity for people. But in order to do that, we need to adjust the activities – Marketing and expensive dead-end projects (read: projects that occupy a lot of person-hours) does not achieve real prosperity.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  No, you couldn't. The average working male earning 6200 USD a year in 1963 was supporting 2-3 other people (i.e., the nuclear family), not 5. This is almost directly in line, via inflation, with the average US household income and size in 2024. I agree with the larger point about prosperity, and I think there are ways in which the US (and other developed countries) have gone backwards in QoL metrics. But a serious conversation about that needs to start with numbers rooted in reality, not a rose-glass view of the past.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Take your typical family of 4 living on 2 incomes today. Are they living in a 1,500sf house (median size in 1960)? Without AC, no cable TV, no computers, 1 car, no exotic / organic foods except from the garden, few toys, 60’s era medicine. Do they actually repair or even make clothes? How about home repairs? My mother was a teen in the 60’s and while objectively they were well above the median income for the time period in many ways they lived like extremely poor people do in 2024. Some of that was actually saving money for retirement, but mostly it was just far lower expectations.
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      Right. By virtually every metric, the average American family is materially more prosperous than they would have been in the 1960s. Backwards movement in QoL metrics is mostly on the left tail: impoverished Americans have access to AC and refrigerators, but often live in food deserts or are subjected to perverse policies in our social safety net (e.g. welfare cliffs that punish people for working by taking away benefits that enable them to work).
    - lowkey 3y ago
      You make some valid points but one nitpick: what we call organic food today, they simply called food in the 60's since all food was by definition organic.
      - GeneralMayhem 3y ago
        That is abjectly false. Synthetic pesticides have been used since before the second world war. Silent Spring was written in 1962 about the effects of the amounts of DDT that had already accumulated in the environment by that point.
  - tossandthrow 3y ago
    Yes, so I am saying that a median income today could sustain a 6 person household if you were allowed to fix your comfort level to the level of the 60s. That is 3 more than a single median income supported in the 60s. I am definitely not trying to paint a rose-glass view of the past. I am saying that we do have more prosperity today than we had 60 years ago. I am also saying that we pay of a lot of time to have things that provide diminishing returns. (Ie. would you rather have flush toilets or access to facebook - style of reasoning). Maybe the famous 80% value for 20% cost is also inflating?
- huytersd 3y ago
  Mainly potatoes is bullshit.
  - deleted 3y ago
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  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Not for Northern Europe in the 50's.
  - tyfon 3y ago
    Sild og poteter (herring and potatoes) is still a meme for being poor in Norway. Potatoes are a main staple in many ways outside of the cities even to this day.
- tonymet 3y ago
  Like peter theil says, in 40 years only technology has improved , the real world has declined. Should we value technology so much that we cheer on the loss of the real world?
  - zeroonetwothree 3y ago
    What exactly has declined?
- citizen_friend 3y ago
  No. Because the things that cost significant amounts of money aren't computers, phones, and tvs (notice that poor people have these). It's the minimum bar to be a player in society that has been raised. 1960s - could have a good career without college education and it was inexpensive - can afford a house - can often not have a car 2020s - need bachelors degree to get started, probably also need a professional degree - houses occupy - need cars (likely for all adult family members)
  - tossandthrow 3y ago
    What is it then, that is so super expensive today, that wasn't too expensive in the 60s? also it is a strawman to mention the poor people has it. the hierarchy of what you spend money on is not settled in a hiatorical occurance of said product. you don't buy a watch before a phone because it was invented first. also, it is completely irrelevant. my proposition is that if you fix your comforts at the 60s level then you have greater spending power than equivalent people of the 60s
    - citizen_friend 3y ago
      > What is it then, that is so super expensive today, that wasn't too expensive in the 60s? - Education. Include how much education you need and prep (duration increases costs and reduces wages). - Insurance, - Health care - Transportation (gas, cost of vehicles, average commutes). - Professional services (accounting, law, etc). - Housing The point is in 1960 you could be a normal member of society with no health insurance, a high school diploma, one car for your family, and 1000 square foot house downtown. That game plan is no longer viable.
- impossiblefork 3y ago
  We were actually flying on vacation in the 1960s though. My maternal grandfather was a school principal and his wife didn't need a job. They went to England and Spain on vacation. We also of course absolutely loved potatoes. We still do.
gedy 3y ago
> What would an iPad cost in 1960 I don't think that the cost of a computer should silently get included into basics like rent for a roof over your head, food, and medical treatment.
fragmede 3y ago
What did a college education cost in 1960? I would gladly trade WFH to be the one person supporting a family of 6. (Me, partner, two kids, two grandparents.) The Internet's great and all (although sometimes it seems like it was a mistake), but we're so far from 1 very average person being able to support a middle class life style for 6 people. Median income in 1960 was $5,600, which is equivalent to $60,000 today, but according to the EPI*, to provide for a family of 6, I'd need to make about $150k/yr to live in Cincinnati, Ohio (in SF it's $280k). Which isn't a lot in the FAANG world, but the point is that a very average not-very-smart person was able to provide for that many people back then. How many very average not-very-smart unskilled people do you know make $150k/yr; how many smart people do you know that make less than that? * https://www.epi.org/resources/budget/ https://www.epi.org/resources/budget/.
- deleted 3y ago
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- woodruffw 3y ago
  > Which isn't a lot in the FAANG world, but the point is that a very average not-very-smart person was able to provide for that many people back then They weren't. The average household income in the 1960s (i.e., from a single breadwinner) was supporting a household of 3-4 people not 6[1][2]. The claim that you could support a family of 6 on a single breadwinner's income in 1960 and achieve anything close to 2024's quality of life is an egregious misrepresentation by the GGP. [1]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a-family-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a... [2]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-households-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-h...
  - fragmede 3y ago
    I mean, lower it to 4, the EPI calculator still gives $100k. Are there that many jobs paying that for someone who's pretty average in Cincinnati?
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tonymet 3y ago
Some aspects have improved, and others have declined. Home entertainment has more options, we spend more time at the TV and computer. Other aspects of life have declined. It's challenging because there are qualitative and aesthetic aspects to the process, so it takes some discussion to come up with a good understanding. Regardless CPI is misleading. The amount of time spent working over a lifetime to support the family and cover taxes has grown significantly, at a higher rate than CPI suggests.
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  What specifically has declined? When I compare life that my grandparents had to now it is absurdly better in every way.
  - tsimionescu 3y ago
    Community/social life has greatly declined for almost everyone. Home appliances are fancier today, but they are far less reliable. Furniture is much worse in almost every way (e.g. my grandma sleeps today on the same bed and spring mattress that her parents-in-law bought, some 60-70 years ago, and it is still extremely comfortable). Clothes are far less durable as well. Fruits and vegetables are typically worse in taste. Education is extraordinarily more expensive. Job security is much worse.
  - tonymet 3y ago
    Could I ask what parts you favor?
willcipriano 3y ago
> 1960 the average single family home was 1300 square feet, now it’s more than double that It's the same house. They put drywall up in the basement and walls around the porch and call it a sun room.

fulafel 3y ago

The opulent space per inhabitant (as families are also smaller) is now viewed by many as a negative in face of the climate crisis, not to mention the cost of housing and the resulting need to work more.

tossandthrow 3y ago

The main thing is, that I could actually support a household of 6 people on a single income if I was allowed to fix the comfort at the 60s level. 1. No flying on vacation and only simple camping as vacation 2. No technology: Computers, phone, television. Nothing, and no associated costs with subscriptions, etc. 3. Eat like it was the 60s, mainly potatoes (I am from Northern Europe). That said: I truly believe in the parent commenters key idea. We need to create more real prosperity for people. But in order to do that, we need to adjust the activities – Marketing and expensive dead-end projects (read: projects that occupy a lot of person-hours) does not achieve real prosperity.

woodruffw 3y ago
No, you couldn't. The average working male earning 6200 USD a year in 1963 was supporting 2-3 other people (i.e., the nuclear family), not 5. This is almost directly in line, via inflation, with the average US household income and size in 2024. I agree with the larger point about prosperity, and I think there are ways in which the US (and other developed countries) have gone backwards in QoL metrics. But a serious conversation about that needs to start with numbers rooted in reality, not a rose-glass view of the past.
- Retric 3y ago
  Take your typical family of 4 living on 2 incomes today. Are they living in a 1,500sf house (median size in 1960)? Without AC, no cable TV, no computers, 1 car, no exotic / organic foods except from the garden, few toys, 60’s era medicine. Do they actually repair or even make clothes? How about home repairs? My mother was a teen in the 60’s and while objectively they were well above the median income for the time period in many ways they lived like extremely poor people do in 2024. Some of that was actually saving money for retirement, but mostly it was just far lower expectations.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    Right. By virtually every metric, the average American family is materially more prosperous than they would have been in the 1960s. Backwards movement in QoL metrics is mostly on the left tail: impoverished Americans have access to AC and refrigerators, but often live in food deserts or are subjected to perverse policies in our social safety net (e.g. welfare cliffs that punish people for working by taking away benefits that enable them to work).
  - lowkey 3y ago
    You make some valid points but one nitpick: what we call organic food today, they simply called food in the 60's since all food was by definition organic.
    - GeneralMayhem 3y ago
      That is abjectly false. Synthetic pesticides have been used since before the second world war. Silent Spring was written in 1962 about the effects of the amounts of DDT that had already accumulated in the environment by that point.
- tossandthrow 3y ago
  Yes, so I am saying that a median income today could sustain a 6 person household if you were allowed to fix your comfort level to the level of the 60s. That is 3 more than a single median income supported in the 60s. I am definitely not trying to paint a rose-glass view of the past. I am saying that we do have more prosperity today than we had 60 years ago. I am also saying that we pay of a lot of time to have things that provide diminishing returns. (Ie. would you rather have flush toilets or access to facebook - style of reasoning). Maybe the famous 80% value for 20% cost is also inflating?
huytersd 3y ago
Mainly potatoes is bullshit.
- deleted 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  Not for Northern Europe in the 50's.
- tyfon 3y ago
  Sild og poteter (herring and potatoes) is still a meme for being poor in Norway. Potatoes are a main staple in many ways outside of the cities even to this day.
tonymet 3y ago
Like peter theil says, in 40 years only technology has improved , the real world has declined. Should we value technology so much that we cheer on the loss of the real world?
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  What exactly has declined?
citizen_friend 3y ago
No. Because the things that cost significant amounts of money aren't computers, phones, and tvs (notice that poor people have these). It's the minimum bar to be a player in society that has been raised. 1960s - could have a good career without college education and it was inexpensive - can afford a house - can often not have a car 2020s - need bachelors degree to get started, probably also need a professional degree - houses occupy - need cars (likely for all adult family members)
- tossandthrow 3y ago
  What is it then, that is so super expensive today, that wasn't too expensive in the 60s? also it is a strawman to mention the poor people has it. the hierarchy of what you spend money on is not settled in a hiatorical occurance of said product. you don't buy a watch before a phone because it was invented first. also, it is completely irrelevant. my proposition is that if you fix your comforts at the 60s level then you have greater spending power than equivalent people of the 60s
  - citizen_friend 3y ago
    > What is it then, that is so super expensive today, that wasn't too expensive in the 60s? - Education. Include how much education you need and prep (duration increases costs and reduces wages). - Insurance, - Health care - Transportation (gas, cost of vehicles, average commutes). - Professional services (accounting, law, etc). - Housing The point is in 1960 you could be a normal member of society with no health insurance, a high school diploma, one car for your family, and 1000 square foot house downtown. That game plan is no longer viable.
impossiblefork 3y ago
We were actually flying on vacation in the 1960s though. My maternal grandfather was a school principal and his wife didn't need a job. They went to England and Spain on vacation. We also of course absolutely loved potatoes. We still do.

gedy 3y ago

> What would an iPad cost in 1960 I don't think that the cost of a computer should silently get included into basics like rent for a roof over your head, food, and medical treatment.

fragmede 3y ago

What did a college education cost in 1960? I would gladly trade WFH to be the one person supporting a family of 6. (Me, partner, two kids, two grandparents.) The Internet's great and all (although sometimes it seems like it was a mistake), but we're so far from 1 very average person being able to support a middle class life style for 6 people. Median income in 1960 was $5,600, which is equivalent to $60,000 today, but according to the EPI*, to provide for a family of 6, I'd need to make about $150k/yr to live in Cincinnati, Ohio (in SF it's $280k). Which isn't a lot in the FAANG world, but the point is that a very average not-very-smart person was able to provide for that many people back then. How many very average not-very-smart unskilled people do you know make $150k/yr; how many smart people do you know that make less than that? * https://www.epi.org/resources/budget/ https://www.epi.org/resources/budget/.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
woodruffw 3y ago
> Which isn't a lot in the FAANG world, but the point is that a very average not-very-smart person was able to provide for that many people back then They weren't. The average household income in the 1960s (i.e., from a single breadwinner) was supporting a household of 3-4 people not 6[1][2]. The claim that you could support a family of 6 on a single breadwinner's income in 1960 and achieve anything close to 2024's quality of life is an egregious misrepresentation by the GGP. [1]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a-family-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a... [2]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-households-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-h...
- fragmede 3y ago
  I mean, lower it to 4, the EPI calculator still gives $100k. Are there that many jobs paying that for someone who's pretty average in Cincinnati?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

tonymet 3y ago

Some aspects have improved, and others have declined. Home entertainment has more options, we spend more time at the TV and computer. Other aspects of life have declined. It's challenging because there are qualitative and aesthetic aspects to the process, so it takes some discussion to come up with a good understanding. Regardless CPI is misleading. The amount of time spent working over a lifetime to support the family and cover taxes has grown significantly, at a higher rate than CPI suggests.

zeroonetwothree 3y ago
What specifically has declined? When I compare life that my grandparents had to now it is absurdly better in every way.
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  Community/social life has greatly declined for almost everyone. Home appliances are fancier today, but they are far less reliable. Furniture is much worse in almost every way (e.g. my grandma sleeps today on the same bed and spring mattress that her parents-in-law bought, some 60-70 years ago, and it is still extremely comfortable). Clothes are far less durable as well. Fruits and vegetables are typically worse in taste. Education is extraordinarily more expensive. Job security is much worse.
- tonymet 3y ago
  Could I ask what parts you favor?

willcipriano 3y ago

> 1960 the average single family home was 1300 square feet, now it’s more than double that It's the same house. They put drywall up in the basement and walls around the porch and call it a sun room.