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BYD Got €3.4B Chinese Aid to Dominate EVs, Study Says

36 points by jseliger 3y ago

zug_zug 3y ago
I don't often say this, but I feel like the reddit comment section covers all the bases https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1c2ixsh/byd_got_34_billion_chinese_aid_to_dominate_evs/ https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1c2ixsh/b...
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
This is like the Dr Evil scene in Austin Powers when he suggests holding the entire world to ransom for 1 million dollars, and is confused by his henchmen being underwhelmed by what he thinks is a big number. Of course he'd been frozen for 30 years of inflation and progress, not sure what the authors of this report's excuse is.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  >not sure what the authors of this report's excuse is Not being good at his job.
pritp0 3y ago
I assume this similar to the west when we give our own industry subsdies ? Why are we not using "Dominate" in the headlines when we do it? Or am i missing something?
- constantcrying 3y ago
  >Why are we not using "Dominate" in the headlines when we do it? Because for a western car manufacturer 3 Billion is barely enough to get them to care to do something. Surely it isn't enough to make them dominate anything.
huntoa 3y ago
That seems cheap. The German state pissed away €76B in mostly non-productive Covid aid, made subsidy fraud so mindbogglingly easy, it resulted in billions of illegitimate aid paid out. Unbelievable levels of incompetence and/or corruption. It does not matter what other countries do, when our government shoots our own country with a bazooka. Western Europe is crumbling, besieged from the outside, corroded from the inside. Darkness beckons. Source (German): https://archive.is/Ai8u1 https://archive.is/Ai8u1
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  >That seems cheap. That is insanely cheap when you see how much money the German automakers have pissed away. For example, Daimler's Smart car brand alone posted over 4 billion Euros in losses. They could have gone to space with that money. Not just in Germany either, but France and Italy, they're all pushing crazy money in the local auto industry for the sake of maintaining local jobs, with little else to show for. By comparison, the Chinese taxpayer got a really good deal here. >it resulted in billions of illegitimate aid paid out. Ah yeah, I remember watching a report on ZDF while the authorities were repo-ing someone's Bentley, how during Covid the German Gov was reimbursing test centers money for Covid tests without requesting any solid proof that the tests were actually made. So an entire industry sprung up where everyone and their mom were opening sham covid test centers but only on paper, and so enterprising individuals were making hundreds of thousands of Euros from submitting fake reimbursement claims to the government which the government paid outright without doing any checks. In general the German government is totally shit at being eficient and fiscally responsible with it's citizens' money. They spend like drunken sailors on useless crap during the good times, and when the bad times come it's "sorry bruh we're broke, time for public service cutbacks".
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    >For example, Daimler's Smart car brand alone posted over 4 billion Euros in losses. They could have gone to space with that money. Those are private losses, meaning they are subsidized by Mercedes themselves. Also Smart is as much a German Brand as it is a Chinese brand. Geely lost exactly the same money Mercedes did. Additionally you are not counting the losses correctly, even if smart looses money, selling cheap low emissions often electric city cars is hugely beneficial to Mercedes, due to European car regulations. >Not just in Germany either, but France and Italy, they're all pushing crazy money in the local auto industry for the sake of maintaining local jobs, with little else to show for. No. They are selling cars, like any healthy industry would do. I don't get what you think automobile companies could accomplish, besides producing cars for people to use and employing people to make them. The Chinese are doing exactly the same and get the same benefits. >By comparison, the Chinese taxpayer got a really good deal here. They got a productive car industry. Like it exists in France or Germany.
omeze 3y ago
This seems really low. If we could throw 3.4b at a new car company and get the awesome suspension tech and price points of the BYD cars then that’d be huge. If every country could do this domestically, even better!
- constantcrying 3y ago
  What suspension tech does BYD have that others do not?
  - zaphirplane 3y ago
    Reality suspension in advertising - no idea sounds funny thou
blackhawkC17 3y ago
Just 3.4 billion euros? American VCs have collectively spent much more on many failed EV startups..
WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
How much Tesla got in subsidies? :)
- demondemidi 3y ago
  US$8B and counting.
chimney 3y ago
That seems insignificant compared to the subsidies doled out by the American govt.
ulfw 3y ago
An absolute pittance compared to what Elon Musk is able to extract from US taxpayers to fuel his own personal wealth.
gmerc 3y ago
Less than what we throw at Intel or TSMC. And this is for a good environmental cause.
bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
How much did Tesla get?
DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
The headline here should be "BYD sold the most EVs in China in 2022, so it got the most EV purchase subsidies." The subsidies discussed in this report are mostly "purchase subsidies," which the Chinese government pays to all domestic EV manufacturers. The more cars a company sells, the more "purchase subsidies" it receives. BYD received 1.6 billion Euros in 2022, because it sold the most EVs. The second largest recipient was Tesla, which received 0.4 billion Euros from the Chinese government in purchase subsidies. If Tesla had sold more EVs in China, it would have received more subsidies. This particular "purchase subsidy" program has ended, by the way. There are still other types of subsidies, such as waivers on license-plate fees (which can be massive in large Chinese cities) for EVs. Just as a general comment, I find it slightly amusing that the narrative has shifted from "China doesn't care about the environment" to "China is heavily subsidizing renewable energy and EVs, and here's why that's a bad thing."

36 points by jseliger 3y ago

I don't often say this, but I feel like the reddit comment section covers all the bases https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1c2ixsh/byd_got_34_billion_chinese_aid_to_dominate_evs/ https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1c2ixsh/b...

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

This is like the Dr Evil scene in Austin Powers when he suggests holding the entire world to ransom for 1 million dollars, and is confused by his henchmen being underwhelmed by what he thinks is a big number. Of course he'd been frozen for 30 years of inflation and progress, not sure what the authors of this report's excuse is.

Rinzler89 3y ago
>not sure what the authors of this report's excuse is Not being good at his job.

pritp0 3y ago

I assume this similar to the west when we give our own industry subsdies ? Why are we not using "Dominate" in the headlines when we do it? Or am i missing something?

constantcrying 3y ago
>Why are we not using "Dominate" in the headlines when we do it? Because for a western car manufacturer 3 Billion is barely enough to get them to care to do something. Surely it isn't enough to make them dominate anything.

huntoa 3y ago

That seems cheap. The German state pissed away €76B in mostly non-productive Covid aid, made subsidy fraud so mindbogglingly easy, it resulted in billions of illegitimate aid paid out. Unbelievable levels of incompetence and/or corruption. It does not matter what other countries do, when our government shoots our own country with a bazooka. Western Europe is crumbling, besieged from the outside, corroded from the inside. Darkness beckons. Source (German): https://archive.is/Ai8u1 https://archive.is/Ai8u1

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Rinzler89 3y ago
>That seems cheap. That is insanely cheap when you see how much money the German automakers have pissed away. For example, Daimler's Smart car brand alone posted over 4 billion Euros in losses. They could have gone to space with that money. Not just in Germany either, but France and Italy, they're all pushing crazy money in the local auto industry for the sake of maintaining local jobs, with little else to show for. By comparison, the Chinese taxpayer got a really good deal here. >it resulted in billions of illegitimate aid paid out. Ah yeah, I remember watching a report on ZDF while the authorities were repo-ing someone's Bentley, how during Covid the German Gov was reimbursing test centers money for Covid tests without requesting any solid proof that the tests were actually made. So an entire industry sprung up where everyone and their mom were opening sham covid test centers but only on paper, and so enterprising individuals were making hundreds of thousands of Euros from submitting fake reimbursement claims to the government which the government paid outright without doing any checks. In general the German government is totally shit at being eficient and fiscally responsible with it's citizens' money. They spend like drunken sailors on useless crap during the good times, and when the bad times come it's "sorry bruh we're broke, time for public service cutbacks".
- constantcrying 3y ago
  >For example, Daimler's Smart car brand alone posted over 4 billion Euros in losses. They could have gone to space with that money. Those are private losses, meaning they are subsidized by Mercedes themselves. Also Smart is as much a German Brand as it is a Chinese brand. Geely lost exactly the same money Mercedes did. Additionally you are not counting the losses correctly, even if smart looses money, selling cheap low emissions often electric city cars is hugely beneficial to Mercedes, due to European car regulations. >Not just in Germany either, but France and Italy, they're all pushing crazy money in the local auto industry for the sake of maintaining local jobs, with little else to show for. No. They are selling cars, like any healthy industry would do. I don't get what you think automobile companies could accomplish, besides producing cars for people to use and employing people to make them. The Chinese are doing exactly the same and get the same benefits. >By comparison, the Chinese taxpayer got a really good deal here. They got a productive car industry. Like it exists in France or Germany.

omeze 3y ago

This seems really low. If we could throw 3.4b at a new car company and get the awesome suspension tech and price points of the BYD cars then that’d be huge. If every country could do this domestically, even better!

constantcrying 3y ago
What suspension tech does BYD have that others do not?
- zaphirplane 3y ago
  Reality suspension in advertising - no idea sounds funny thou

blackhawkC17 3y ago

Just 3.4 billion euros? American VCs have collectively spent much more on many failed EV startups..

WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago

How much Tesla got in subsidies? :)

demondemidi 3y ago
US$8B and counting.

chimney 3y ago

That seems insignificant compared to the subsidies doled out by the American govt.

ulfw 3y ago

An absolute pittance compared to what Elon Musk is able to extract from US taxpayers to fuel his own personal wealth.

gmerc 3y ago

Less than what we throw at Intel or TSMC. And this is for a good environmental cause.

bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago

How much did Tesla get?

DiogenesKynikos 3y ago

The headline here should be "BYD sold the most EVs in China in 2022, so it got the most EV purchase subsidies." The subsidies discussed in this report are mostly "purchase subsidies," which the Chinese government pays to all domestic EV manufacturers. The more cars a company sells, the more "purchase subsidies" it receives. BYD received 1.6 billion Euros in 2022, because it sold the most EVs. The second largest recipient was Tesla, which received 0.4 billion Euros from the Chinese government in purchase subsidies. If Tesla had sold more EVs in China, it would have received more subsidies. This particular "purchase subsidy" program has ended, by the way. There are still other types of subsidies, such as waivers on license-plate fees (which can be massive in large Chinese cities) for EVs. Just as a general comment, I find it slightly amusing that the narrative has shifted from "China doesn't care about the environment" to "China is heavily subsidizing renewable energy and EVs, and here's why that's a bad thing."