5 ms·

Everyone is always concerned about scale. But I sometimes wonder if we need to scale down. Are cargo ships full of essential goods or disposable items that wil

Everyone is always concerned about scale. But I sometimes wonder if we need to scale down. Are cargo ships full of essential goods or disposable items that will more likely than not enter a landfill without seeing any use at all? We’re really good at over producing items and goods that we don’t need or use. It’s interesting to see businesses try things like this. It might not be efficient or affordable now. But someone had to break ground and move the needle somewhere. There’s an interesting story in a similar vein behind the publishing of the card game, Earthborne Rangers. They wanted to print the game so that it was fully compostable. Save for the staples in the rulebook they succeeded despite industry veterans telling them it would be too expensive and not work. I’m glad they did it. I hope others will also try it.

cloverich 3y ago
This is where carbon tax helps. Having to pay the true cost of goods helps everyone make better decisions. Maybe, hopefully, it also pushes the needle towards higher quality, more essential items and hence less waste. Yet, "make everything more expensive" is a challenging position to make progress on.
- basisword 3y ago
  Doesn’t this just drive up the cost for the people who are already struggling to afford these goods?
  - thrance 3y ago
    It does, but it is also supposed to bring up the hidden costs of buying things in their prices, so that greener products that would do less harm would be cheaper than more destructive goods. For example, a plane ticket might be cheaper than a train one for the same trip but it costs more to the community in the long term because of global warming.
    - andrepd 3y ago
      And pollution. People forget that pollution is not just the fuzzy and far-off consequences of global warming, but also very real and immediate deaths and illnesses.
  - makapuf 3y ago
    One of the solution for this would be to pay them more, by example with direct aid (coming from carbon taxes). They will then be able to chose better products or higher quality ones.
  - jdlshore 3y ago
    A carbon dividend pairs effectively with a carbon tax. You give people (not businesses) an equal proportion of the tax collected. People who consume less than the average end up earning more than they spent.
    - wiml 3y ago
      How is "carbon dividend plus carbon tax" different from "cap and trade"? C&T seems to have gone very out of fashion, but it also seems to me to be the most equitable approach — I don't follow this closely enough, maybe I'm missing something.
      - jdlshore 3y ago
        It’s similar in some ways, but very different in practice. I don’t study these things, but my understanding is that cap & trade puts a hard limit on emissions, then allows businesses to trade carbon allowance as a new sort of currency. Carbon tax + dividend doesn’t put a hard limit, and it doesn’t establish a new currency/market. Instead, emissions are taxed at the business level and that revenue is paid out at the individual level. I like the way it plays to the strengths of our existing capitalistic system. It’s easy to ratchet up the taxes without affecting the little guy—even benefitting them. It seems easier to administer too.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    It imposes the real cost of the goods including externalities. The costs will be borne by somebody, why not the consumer of the good? It also encourages people to find ways to get goods to consumers that are more efficient.
sva_ 3y ago
> We’re really good at over producing items and goods that we don’t need or use. Overproduction of essential things like food is by design as it makes a famine much less likely. About non-essential stuff, I would agree with you.
ianburrell 3y ago
One thing to keep in mind is that cargo ships are one of the most efficient ways of transport stuff. It is likely that any advantage from this sailing ship was lost driving the cargo to warehouse and then shipping it to destination. It is strange to worry about the cheap part of shipping and ignore the expensive parts. Also, there are lots of disposable goods that are essential like food and toilet paper. Lots of food is shipped by container. What is the difference between a mango and an apple? Clothing is frequently shipped by container. How are you going to decide what clothing is frivolous fast fashion and what is essential?
rmah 3y ago
At end of life, cargo ships are cut up into scrap steel. That scrap is then melted down and re-used to make new steel. I strongly suspect that, if you take into account the energy used to manufacture the ship, sailboats will turn out to have a far higher carbon footprint per ton-mile of shipping than normal cargo ships. Cargo ships, as dirty as they seem on a per-ship basis, are crazy efficient on a per ton-mile basis. But all that aside, sailing cargo ships are nothing more than a curiosity. Their capacity is tiny, they are very slow, are limited in their routes, etc. And as far as I can tell Grain de Sail's business is NOT shipping. It's some sort of luxury wine & chocolates with an eco theme. I suspect the boat is just a way for the owner to have the company pay for his yachts (the boats only make 2 cargo trips a year) .
- kryptiskt 3y ago
  Up until WWII, Finnish shippers were competitive using sailing ships for long range bulk transport of grain, Eric Newby details one such voyage as a sailor in The Last Grain Race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Grain_Race https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Grain_Race). I see no particular reason why sailing ships with a little optimization couldn't be competitive these days if they were back then, especially since the fuel prices comparatively is higher now.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    The real kicker is labor cost per ton. Bigger ships don’t have a proportionately bigger crew. And sailboats were quite labor intensive.
    - qmmmur 3y ago
      Sounds like you just “created some jobs”
    - gofixurcode 3y ago
      It’s totally possible that manipulating the sails and rigging is motorized and automated on these ships. Would be interested to see a demo of the operation of this ship.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
> Are cargo ships full of essential goods This article is about a company transporting luxury coffee, chocolate and wine from France - hardly what I would call "essential goods". And given that coffee and chocolate doesn't grow in France, dollars to doughnuts the commodities for those products was originally brought to France on traditional cargo ships. Totally agree with another commenter, this is simply greenwashing.
- Thorrez 3y ago
  > then down through the Caribbean, where the sailboat will dispatch humanitarian aid, working alongside local NGOs. The sailboat will also restock its coffee and cacao supply on its journey through the Caribbean. That supply is then brought back across the sea to France
andrepd 3y ago
The current economic system optimises and rewards this kind of overproduction. That's the simple truth. As long as this is the case fighting this issue is a losing battle
jdietrich 3y ago
>Are cargo ships full of essential goods Yes, for any reasonable definition of "essential". https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/countries/43/export-basket https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/countries/43/export-basket https://comtradeplus.un.org/Publication/ITSY https://comtradeplus.un.org/Publication/ITSY
fashion-nugget 3y ago
Keeping climate change mitigation separate and off-topic, no, that's absurd. Hand-wringing about too much success or too much efficiency is contrary to the nature of business. If scaling down were essential, it would need to be imposed by consistent regulation so all legitimate participants are held to the same standard. Instead, greater efficiencies, less pollution, faster transit times, and less costs are positive values to optimize for.

cloverich 3y ago

This is where carbon tax helps. Having to pay the true cost of goods helps everyone make better decisions. Maybe, hopefully, it also pushes the needle towards higher quality, more essential items and hence less waste. Yet, "make everything more expensive" is a challenging position to make progress on.

basisword 3y ago
Doesn’t this just drive up the cost for the people who are already struggling to afford these goods?
- thrance 3y ago
  It does, but it is also supposed to bring up the hidden costs of buying things in their prices, so that greener products that would do less harm would be cheaper than more destructive goods. For example, a plane ticket might be cheaper than a train one for the same trip but it costs more to the community in the long term because of global warming.
  - andrepd 3y ago
    And pollution. People forget that pollution is not just the fuzzy and far-off consequences of global warming, but also very real and immediate deaths and illnesses.
- makapuf 3y ago
  One of the solution for this would be to pay them more, by example with direct aid (coming from carbon taxes). They will then be able to chose better products or higher quality ones.
- jdlshore 3y ago
  A carbon dividend pairs effectively with a carbon tax. You give people (not businesses) an equal proportion of the tax collected. People who consume less than the average end up earning more than they spent.
  - wiml 3y ago
    How is "carbon dividend plus carbon tax" different from "cap and trade"? C&T seems to have gone very out of fashion, but it also seems to me to be the most equitable approach — I don't follow this closely enough, maybe I'm missing something.
    - jdlshore 3y ago
      It’s similar in some ways, but very different in practice. I don’t study these things, but my understanding is that cap & trade puts a hard limit on emissions, then allows businesses to trade carbon allowance as a new sort of currency. Carbon tax + dividend doesn’t put a hard limit, and it doesn’t establish a new currency/market. Instead, emissions are taxed at the business level and that revenue is paid out at the individual level. I like the way it plays to the strengths of our existing capitalistic system. It’s easy to ratchet up the taxes without affecting the little guy—even benefitting them. It seems easier to administer too.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  It imposes the real cost of the goods including externalities. The costs will be borne by somebody, why not the consumer of the good? It also encourages people to find ways to get goods to consumers that are more efficient.

sva_ 3y ago

> We’re really good at over producing items and goods that we don’t need or use. Overproduction of essential things like food is by design as it makes a famine much less likely. About non-essential stuff, I would agree with you.

ianburrell 3y ago

One thing to keep in mind is that cargo ships are one of the most efficient ways of transport stuff. It is likely that any advantage from this sailing ship was lost driving the cargo to warehouse and then shipping it to destination. It is strange to worry about the cheap part of shipping and ignore the expensive parts. Also, there are lots of disposable goods that are essential like food and toilet paper. Lots of food is shipped by container. What is the difference between a mango and an apple? Clothing is frequently shipped by container. How are you going to decide what clothing is frivolous fast fashion and what is essential?

rmah 3y ago

At end of life, cargo ships are cut up into scrap steel. That scrap is then melted down and re-used to make new steel. I strongly suspect that, if you take into account the energy used to manufacture the ship, sailboats will turn out to have a far higher carbon footprint per ton-mile of shipping than normal cargo ships. Cargo ships, as dirty as they seem on a per-ship basis, are crazy efficient on a per ton-mile basis. But all that aside, sailing cargo ships are nothing more than a curiosity. Their capacity is tiny, they are very slow, are limited in their routes, etc. And as far as I can tell Grain de Sail's business is NOT shipping. It's some sort of luxury wine & chocolates with an eco theme. I suspect the boat is just a way for the owner to have the company pay for his yachts (the boats only make 2 cargo trips a year) .

kryptiskt 3y ago
Up until WWII, Finnish shippers were competitive using sailing ships for long range bulk transport of grain, Eric Newby details one such voyage as a sailor in The Last Grain Race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Grain_Race https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Grain_Race). I see no particular reason why sailing ships with a little optimization couldn't be competitive these days if they were back then, especially since the fuel prices comparatively is higher now.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  The real kicker is labor cost per ton. Bigger ships don’t have a proportionately bigger crew. And sailboats were quite labor intensive.
  - qmmmur 3y ago
    Sounds like you just “created some jobs”
  - gofixurcode 3y ago
    It’s totally possible that manipulating the sails and rigging is motorized and automated on these ships. Would be interested to see a demo of the operation of this ship.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

> Are cargo ships full of essential goods This article is about a company transporting luxury coffee, chocolate and wine from France - hardly what I would call "essential goods". And given that coffee and chocolate doesn't grow in France, dollars to doughnuts the commodities for those products was originally brought to France on traditional cargo ships. Totally agree with another commenter, this is simply greenwashing.

Thorrez 3y ago
> then down through the Caribbean, where the sailboat will dispatch humanitarian aid, working alongside local NGOs. The sailboat will also restock its coffee and cacao supply on its journey through the Caribbean. That supply is then brought back across the sea to France

andrepd 3y ago

The current economic system optimises and rewards this kind of overproduction. That's the simple truth. As long as this is the case fighting this issue is a losing battle

jdietrich 3y ago

>Are cargo ships full of essential goods Yes, for any reasonable definition of "essential". https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/countries/43/export-basket https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/countries/43/export-basket https://comtradeplus.un.org/Publication/ITSY https://comtradeplus.un.org/Publication/ITSY

fashion-nugget 3y ago

Keeping climate change mitigation separate and off-topic, no, that's absurd. Hand-wringing about too much success or too much efficiency is contrary to the nature of business. If scaling down were essential, it would need to be imposed by consistent regulation so all legitimate participants are held to the same standard. Instead, greater efficiencies, less pollution, faster transit times, and less costs are positive values to optimize for.