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> identical twins at opposite ends of the autism spectrum. I understand this is just a figure of speech, but this wording suggests that there are "two ends" of

by hiciu 2y ago

> identical twins at opposite ends of the autism spectrum. I understand this is just a figure of speech, but this wording suggests that there are "two ends" of the spectrum and (as I understand it) autistic communities are trying to fight that myth.

kthartic 2y ago
As a laymen, isn't the spectrum just 'less autistic tendencies' and 'more autistic tendencies'? Is this a myth, or does the spectrum refer to something else? I was always under the impression that some people could be more autistic than others.
- __s 2y ago
  There are multiple dimensions https://getgoally.com/blog/autism-spectrum-wheel https://getgoally.com/blog/autism-spectrum-wheel Along with many comorbidities (adhd, ocd, depression, etc) which are more likely but not requisite This leads to the saying "if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism"
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - posix_compliant 2y ago
    Then the spectrum would refer to the magnitude of any vector in multidimensional “autism space”.
    - __s 2y ago
      Sure, but saying two people are the same magnitude is very different from saying they have the same level of touch sensitivity Two complex numbers can have the same magnitude & be very far apart. Assuming we stick to the positive/positive quadrant it's not so bad. This metaphor (which, the spectrum itself is a metaphor, making this a metaphor of a metaphor) is to a 2d space tho, complex numbers are much more comparable based on magnitude as a result
      - thaumasiotes 2y ago
        > Two complex numbers can have the same magnitude & be very far apart. Only if their magnitude is large; the maximum possible distance between two complex numbers of equal magnitude is double that magnitude. And this limit is independent of the number of dimensions in the space you're working in; no two equal-magnitude vectors are ever farther apart than opposite vectors are. If you stick to the first quadrant / octant / whatever n-dimensional division of space where all coordinates are positive... I don't think the number of dimensions makes any difference there either? Any two vectors define a plane (or a line, or, if they're both zero, a point), so two vectors in a 500-dimensional space can't be farther apart from each other than is possible for two vectors in a 2-dimensional space. Those 500-dimensional vectors are already embedded in a 2-dimensional space.
        Tarq0n 2y ago
        The question is whether each dimension is equally clinically significant, or equally impactful to quality of life. Talking about magnitude is definitely taking the analogy too far, as temping as it is.
        kenjackson 2y ago
        I think the point is that the magnitude being the same doesn’t necessarily mean their distance is zero. I think the rest isn’t relevant.
        SiempreViernes 2y ago
        "very far" is of course relative: if we have tree vectors, two of length R and one of length 0.99*R, it's not outlandish to call the distance 2R between the two vectors of equal magnitude "very large" compared to the distance 0.01R between two vectors of dissimilar magnitude. Your last comment is completely incorrect, for a point at (1,1,1,....) each extra dimension adds a constant 1 to the euclidean distance, so that in 500 dimensions a point at (1,1,1,....) is around 22.4 units away from the origin, while in two dimensions it is only 1.4 units away from the origin.
        2y ago
    - pfannkuchen 2y ago
      That name would make for a really interesting bar.
    - bitwize 2y ago
      Kinda like how color spectra have multiple dimensions as well: RGB, HSV, YCbCr, etc.
      - card_zero 2y ago
        Well color spaces, not spectra, technically. Brown isn't in the spectrum.
  - AlexandrB 2y ago
    > "if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism" Isn't this true for just about any condition? It's not like people with ADHD or depression all behave exactly the same. I understand the urge to avoid categorizing people too broadly, but at the same time making the "taxonomy" of a condition hyperspecific is contradictory to having the label in the first place. If saying "I have autism" has no descriptive power because this could mean a million different things, it seems like the term needs to be retired or narrowed to a specific set of behaviors/challenges.
    - crisply5706 2y ago
      Keep in mind that the current state of our knowledge of autism and other neurological conditions is still extremely new. Just 30 years ago, you would have been told that only young white boys exhibit autism. There is debate within the autism community about ditching the catch-all term "autism", but I don't expect it to go anywhere. Broad labels like that are useful. I can tell a random person that I'm autistic and they generally understand that my "abnormal" behavior is innocuous. It's less useful to give a stranger a 30 minute lecture on my individual needs and challenges. Read up on the controversy around asperger's and the "high/low functioning" dichotomy. These were standard measures for a long time and have only been dropped in the last ten years or so.
    - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
      I've heard it used exactly that way for ADHD. But more widely, there's a bunch of conditions of varying severity that might be caused by being in a car crash. That doesn't make "I was in a car crash" a bad answer to "what happened to your leg/eye/speech", it's just a fact.
- hiciu 2y ago
  That's exactly the issue, it is not as simple as "less" or "more" "autistic". I don't think I'll be able to explain it properly with my own words using english, sorry. I'll just quote nih.gov: > Autism is known as a “spectrum” disorder because there is wide variation in the type and severity of symptoms people experience. and wikipedia: > Autism is clinically regarded as a spectrum disorder, meaning that it can manifest very differently in each person. For example, some are nonspeaking, while others have proficient spoken language. Because of this, there is wide variation in the support needs of people across the autism spectrum. and maybe take a look at this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_disorder#Types_of_spectrum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_disorder#Types_of_spe...
  - kthartic 2y ago
    I see, wikipedia's definition is quite informative here. Thanks
astura 2y ago
I mean... that's literally the definition of "spectrum" From a few random dictionaries: >2. used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points. >a range of different positions, opinions, etc. between two extreme points ?????
- burkaman 2y ago
  That is what spectrum means, and some autistic people say the word is not applicable to the concept of autism.
- twobitshifter 2y ago
  Yes, that’s true from the dictionary and the article is one place where its use makes sense. However, usually people say “on the spectrum“ to mean someone is a high functioning autistic. That is something that isn’t a helpful definition.
  - quickslowdown 2y ago
    This has always driven me nuts. We're ALL "on the spectrum," if you just stop and think for a moment before saying it. That's what a spectrum is.
- crisply5706 2y ago
  https://getgoally.com/blog/autism-spectrum-wheel https://getgoally.com/blog/autism-spectrum-wheel The naïve assumption is the spectrum is a binary more/less autistic. It very much is not.
- plorg 2y ago
  If you tried to quantify different people's experience of autism you could maybe compare people by the amplitude of their symptoms (say a maximum or average), but you'd get a much better idea of the range of experiences with something like a Fourier transform. Imagine different symptoms are different wavelengths of light. Different people experience certain elements of the constellation of symptoms that we can "autism" to different degrees. And the goal is not really to get anyone to be "less autistic", but to help them live in society (or to build a society that allows them to better join in).
quickslowdown 2y ago
Yeah, I would read this and assume the 2 ends of the spectrum are "autistic and not-autistic," considering what the word "spectrum" means.
- ordu 2y ago
  "autistic and not-autistic" is not a spectrum, it can be described as a scalar value. A spectrum appears when you have many values (maybe continuum) with different values. Frequency spectrum is a good example: it shows you a lot of frequencies that intermixed in a signal.
Anotheroneagain 2y ago
Please stop spreading such lies, if anything, they don't like being grouped together with obviously disabled people.

by hiciu 2y ago

kthartic 2y ago

As a laymen, isn't the spectrum just 'less autistic tendencies' and 'more autistic tendencies'? Is this a myth, or does the spectrum refer to something else? I was always under the impression that some people could be more autistic than others.

__s 2y ago
There are multiple dimensions https://getgoally.com/blog/autism-spectrum-wheel https://getgoally.com/blog/autism-spectrum-wheel Along with many comorbidities (adhd, ocd, depression, etc) which are more likely but not requisite This leads to the saying "if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism"
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- posix_compliant 2y ago
  Then the spectrum would refer to the magnitude of any vector in multidimensional “autism space”.
  - __s 2y ago
    Sure, but saying two people are the same magnitude is very different from saying they have the same level of touch sensitivity Two complex numbers can have the same magnitude & be very far apart. Assuming we stick to the positive/positive quadrant it's not so bad. This metaphor (which, the spectrum itself is a metaphor, making this a metaphor of a metaphor) is to a 2d space tho, complex numbers are much more comparable based on magnitude as a result
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      > Two complex numbers can have the same magnitude & be very far apart. Only if their magnitude is large; the maximum possible distance between two complex numbers of equal magnitude is double that magnitude. And this limit is independent of the number of dimensions in the space you're working in; no two equal-magnitude vectors are ever farther apart than opposite vectors are. If you stick to the first quadrant / octant / whatever n-dimensional division of space where all coordinates are positive... I don't think the number of dimensions makes any difference there either? Any two vectors define a plane (or a line, or, if they're both zero, a point), so two vectors in a 500-dimensional space can't be farther apart from each other than is possible for two vectors in a 2-dimensional space. Those 500-dimensional vectors are already embedded in a 2-dimensional space.
      - Tarq0n 2y ago
        The question is whether each dimension is equally clinically significant, or equally impactful to quality of life. Talking about magnitude is definitely taking the analogy too far, as temping as it is.
      - kenjackson 2y ago
        I think the point is that the magnitude being the same doesn’t necessarily mean their distance is zero. I think the rest isn’t relevant.
      - SiempreViernes 2y ago
        "very far" is of course relative: if we have tree vectors, two of length R and one of length 0.99*R, it's not outlandish to call the distance 2R between the two vectors of equal magnitude "very large" compared to the distance 0.01R between two vectors of dissimilar magnitude. Your last comment is completely incorrect, for a point at (1,1,1,....) each extra dimension adds a constant 1 to the euclidean distance, so that in 500 dimensions a point at (1,1,1,....) is around 22.4 units away from the origin, while in two dimensions it is only 1.4 units away from the origin.
        2y ago
  - pfannkuchen 2y ago
    That name would make for a really interesting bar.
  - bitwize 2y ago
    Kinda like how color spectra have multiple dimensions as well: RGB, HSV, YCbCr, etc.
    - card_zero 2y ago
      Well color spaces, not spectra, technically. Brown isn't in the spectrum.
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  > "if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism" Isn't this true for just about any condition? It's not like people with ADHD or depression all behave exactly the same. I understand the urge to avoid categorizing people too broadly, but at the same time making the "taxonomy" of a condition hyperspecific is contradictory to having the label in the first place. If saying "I have autism" has no descriptive power because this could mean a million different things, it seems like the term needs to be retired or narrowed to a specific set of behaviors/challenges.
  - crisply5706 2y ago
    Keep in mind that the current state of our knowledge of autism and other neurological conditions is still extremely new. Just 30 years ago, you would have been told that only young white boys exhibit autism. There is debate within the autism community about ditching the catch-all term "autism", but I don't expect it to go anywhere. Broad labels like that are useful. I can tell a random person that I'm autistic and they generally understand that my "abnormal" behavior is innocuous. It's less useful to give a stranger a 30 minute lecture on my individual needs and challenges. Read up on the controversy around asperger's and the "high/low functioning" dichotomy. These were standard measures for a long time and have only been dropped in the last ten years or so.
  - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
    I've heard it used exactly that way for ADHD. But more widely, there's a bunch of conditions of varying severity that might be caused by being in a car crash. That doesn't make "I was in a car crash" a bad answer to "what happened to your leg/eye/speech", it's just a fact.
hiciu 2y ago
That's exactly the issue, it is not as simple as "less" or "more" "autistic". I don't think I'll be able to explain it properly with my own words using english, sorry. I'll just quote nih.gov: > Autism is known as a “spectrum” disorder because there is wide variation in the type and severity of symptoms people experience. and wikipedia: > Autism is clinically regarded as a spectrum disorder, meaning that it can manifest very differently in each person. For example, some are nonspeaking, while others have proficient spoken language. Because of this, there is wide variation in the support needs of people across the autism spectrum. and maybe take a look at this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_disorder#Types_of_spectrum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_disorder#Types_of_spe...
- kthartic 2y ago
  I see, wikipedia's definition is quite informative here. Thanks

astura 2y ago

I mean... that's literally the definition of "spectrum" From a few random dictionaries: >2. used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points. >a range of different positions, opinions, etc. between two extreme points ?????

burkaman 2y ago
That is what spectrum means, and some autistic people say the word is not applicable to the concept of autism.
twobitshifter 2y ago
Yes, that’s true from the dictionary and the article is one place where its use makes sense. However, usually people say “on the spectrum“ to mean someone is a high functioning autistic. That is something that isn’t a helpful definition.
- quickslowdown 2y ago
  This has always driven me nuts. We're ALL "on the spectrum," if you just stop and think for a moment before saying it. That's what a spectrum is.
crisply5706 2y ago
https://getgoally.com/blog/autism-spectrum-wheel https://getgoally.com/blog/autism-spectrum-wheel The naïve assumption is the spectrum is a binary more/less autistic. It very much is not.
plorg 2y ago
If you tried to quantify different people's experience of autism you could maybe compare people by the amplitude of their symptoms (say a maximum or average), but you'd get a much better idea of the range of experiences with something like a Fourier transform. Imagine different symptoms are different wavelengths of light. Different people experience certain elements of the constellation of symptoms that we can "autism" to different degrees. And the goal is not really to get anyone to be "less autistic", but to help them live in society (or to build a society that allows them to better join in).

quickslowdown 2y ago

Yeah, I would read this and assume the 2 ends of the spectrum are "autistic and not-autistic," considering what the word "spectrum" means.

ordu 2y ago
"autistic and not-autistic" is not a spectrum, it can be described as a scalar value. A spectrum appears when you have many values (maybe continuum) with different values. Frequency spectrum is a good example: it shows you a lot of frequencies that intermixed in a signal.

Anotheroneagain 2y ago

Please stop spreading such lies, if anything, they don't like being grouped together with obviously disabled people.