3 ms·

The First Beta of Android 15

35 points by kieto 2y ago

AndrewDucker 2y ago
With these being the major changes, it very much feels like Android is "done". That changes from now on will be small tweaks rather than fundamental redesigns?
- soramimo 2y ago
  Maybe that's a good thing? I've been enjoying my "done" KDE Linux desktop for many years and actually don't want people to "move around my furniture" all the time.
  - AndrewDucker 2y ago
    I'm not complaining if that is the case! Just wondering if that is where we've got to or if I was missing something.
- 0x000xca0xfe 2y ago
  If it were "done" there would be nothing left to improve. But why aren't iOS users switching in droves then? More like Android has hit its ceiling. Time to be replaced by a fundamentally new approach. Personally, I'm hoping for a "real Linux" based desktop for multiple form factors or even with seamless sync. The Steamdeck has shown that it is possible to do even for smaller companies.
- hulitu 2y ago
  > With these being the major changes, it very much feels like Android is "done". They change every program (sorry app) from the sake of change. And they fix bugs. No, not the ones introduced by those changes.
magnio 2y ago
> Key management for end-to-end encryption Hopefully this is sign that Android will support E2EE RCS that is interoperable with iOS.
- throw0101c 2y ago
  > Hopefully this is sign that Android will support E2EE RCS that is interoperable with iOS. Android/Google encryption is proprietary as evidenced by the fact that the Content-Type header is "application/vnd.google.rcs.encryption": * https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf § Messages Encryption They state: > In order to store and exchange user public keys like identity keys and prekeys, we need to have a central key server. Unlike the RCS messaging servers, the key server is currently only hosted by Google. * Ibid § Key Server For interoperability there would (potentially) need to be a neutral third-party where everyone's public key(s) are present. ("Everyone" potentially being all folks who use RCS, which may be every phone on the planet.)
CuriousCosmic 2y ago
So when does RCS get a public API? I like google messages and all but I'd kill to see support open up to any of the other messaging apps that exist. And as it is, the API restriction that's locking RCS support in is entirely an arbitrary one.
- AAAAaccountAAAA 2y ago
  Never, because RCS doesn't work that way. However, someone has created an open source prototype RCS client: https://github.com/Hirohumi https://github.com/Hirohumi It supports only carrier-provided RCS, though. No one seems to have even attempted to connect it to Google's carrier-bypassing RCS service.
  - CuriousCosmic 2y ago
    It's not that RCS doesn't work that way. RCS support is actually embedded in android (albeit as a closed source rcsprovider implementation). They just won't actually open up the API (That they expose to other orgs that pay them enough like samsung for their apps). There is no good technical reason why the RCS API needs to restrict itself to only pre-authorised applications vs making RCS access a permission for the user to approve.
    - AAAAaccountAAAA 2y ago
      If one is content with remote-controlling Google's proprietary implementation, it can unofficially be done by leveraging the Web UI: https://github.com/mautrix/gmessages https://github.com/mautrix/gmessages That however does come with all the drawbacks of adversarial interoperability.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
webdevver 2y ago
I wish there was a word about desktop mode. Plugging in my phone and having Windows 11 or Ubuntu or whatever pop up on my desktop has been my lifelong nerd fantasy. Something like DeX, but a "real" desktop OS (where i can open terminals, build stuff, maybe even launch nested VMs), and as a first-class citizen. Maybe Google/Android could have their own desktop skew of Android (like how Microsoft has Azure Linux optimized for their environment), e.g. take Debian and add integrations to it for the rest of the Android system, like when you get notifications, they will appear in the Gnome dock, etc.
- idle_zealot 2y ago
  I know you said you wanted it as a fist-class citizen, but you can roll your own here. Termux lets you set up a chroot Linux install, and you can run a display server and VNC in it. Then you can get a VNC viewer Android app and hook it up to localhost, hook up an external display+keyboard+mouse and you have yourself a heavily-compromised Linux desktop!
  - jauntywundrkind 2y ago
    The very constrained environment sucks. Limited kernel with sparse modules, probably no root access (and Google's infernal Play Protect/SafetyNet will try to make sure you can't run certain apps if you do have root), lots of additional security layers... Android is antagonistic to userlands; it's no fun. It'll be interesting to see how much of the Chrome OS work Android steals. ChromeOS also has an immensely locked down world, but they have build all kinds of secure/virtualizing proxies to let container OSes feel like they have access to hardware. Immense NIH is both daunting but also kinda cool, see https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-library/guides/containers/containers-and-vms/ https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-library/guide...
bassdart 2y ago
> Apps with the REQUEST_DELETE_PACKAGES permission can call the PackageInstaller requestArchive method to request archiving a currently installed app package, which removes the APK and any cached files, but persists user data. Why do they call it archiving, it looks like it's just executing pm uninstall -k to keep the user data? So this is at least a step into the right direction, how uninstalling was handled since decades: Never ever fiddle with user data on uninstall! > users will see a UI treatment to highlight that those apps are archived. If a user taps on an archived app, the responsible installer will get a request to unarchive it What happens if one tries to start an "archived" app which isn't available on the store anymore? Correection: pm unstall -k also keeps the app cache which could, according to <https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1ayheuf/is_there_a_privacy_benefit_to_using_adb_to/krv66np/ https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1ayheuf/is_there_a...>, be a problem when reinstalling an app. So I assume pm uninstall uses a new parameter or even a completely new command in Android 15 for archiving.

35 points by kieto 2y ago

With these being the major changes, it very much feels like Android is "done". That changes from now on will be small tweaks rather than fundamental redesigns?

soramimo 2y ago
Maybe that's a good thing? I've been enjoying my "done" KDE Linux desktop for many years and actually don't want people to "move around my furniture" all the time.
- AndrewDucker 2y ago
  I'm not complaining if that is the case! Just wondering if that is where we've got to or if I was missing something.
0x000xca0xfe 2y ago
If it were "done" there would be nothing left to improve. But why aren't iOS users switching in droves then? More like Android has hit its ceiling. Time to be replaced by a fundamentally new approach. Personally, I'm hoping for a "real Linux" based desktop for multiple form factors or even with seamless sync. The Steamdeck has shown that it is possible to do even for smaller companies.
hulitu 2y ago
> With these being the major changes, it very much feels like Android is "done". They change every program (sorry app) from the sake of change. And they fix bugs. No, not the ones introduced by those changes.

magnio 2y ago

> Key management for end-to-end encryption Hopefully this is sign that Android will support E2EE RCS that is interoperable with iOS.

throw0101c 2y ago
> Hopefully this is sign that Android will support E2EE RCS that is interoperable with iOS. Android/Google encryption is proprietary as evidenced by the fact that the Content-Type header is "application/vnd.google.rcs.encryption": * https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf § Messages Encryption They state: > In order to store and exchange user public keys like identity keys and prekeys, we need to have a central key server. Unlike the RCS messaging servers, the key server is currently only hosted by Google. * Ibid § Key Server For interoperability there would (potentially) need to be a neutral third-party where everyone's public key(s) are present. ("Everyone" potentially being all folks who use RCS, which may be every phone on the planet.)

CuriousCosmic 2y ago

So when does RCS get a public API? I like google messages and all but I'd kill to see support open up to any of the other messaging apps that exist. And as it is, the API restriction that's locking RCS support in is entirely an arbitrary one.

AAAAaccountAAAA 2y ago
Never, because RCS doesn't work that way. However, someone has created an open source prototype RCS client: https://github.com/Hirohumi https://github.com/Hirohumi It supports only carrier-provided RCS, though. No one seems to have even attempted to connect it to Google's carrier-bypassing RCS service.
- CuriousCosmic 2y ago
  It's not that RCS doesn't work that way. RCS support is actually embedded in android (albeit as a closed source rcsprovider implementation). They just won't actually open up the API (That they expose to other orgs that pay them enough like samsung for their apps). There is no good technical reason why the RCS API needs to restrict itself to only pre-authorised applications vs making RCS access a permission for the user to approve.
  - AAAAaccountAAAA 2y ago
    If one is content with remote-controlling Google's proprietary implementation, it can unofficially be done by leveraging the Web UI: https://github.com/mautrix/gmessages https://github.com/mautrix/gmessages That however does come with all the drawbacks of adversarial interoperability.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

webdevver 2y ago

I wish there was a word about desktop mode. Plugging in my phone and having Windows 11 or Ubuntu or whatever pop up on my desktop has been my lifelong nerd fantasy. Something like DeX, but a "real" desktop OS (where i can open terminals, build stuff, maybe even launch nested VMs), and as a first-class citizen. Maybe Google/Android could have their own desktop skew of Android (like how Microsoft has Azure Linux optimized for their environment), e.g. take Debian and add integrations to it for the rest of the Android system, like when you get notifications, they will appear in the Gnome dock, etc.

idle_zealot 2y ago
I know you said you wanted it as a fist-class citizen, but you can roll your own here. Termux lets you set up a chroot Linux install, and you can run a display server and VNC in it. Then you can get a VNC viewer Android app and hook it up to localhost, hook up an external display+keyboard+mouse and you have yourself a heavily-compromised Linux desktop!
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  The very constrained environment sucks. Limited kernel with sparse modules, probably no root access (and Google's infernal Play Protect/SafetyNet will try to make sure you can't run certain apps if you do have root), lots of additional security layers... Android is antagonistic to userlands; it's no fun. It'll be interesting to see how much of the Chrome OS work Android steals. ChromeOS also has an immensely locked down world, but they have build all kinds of secure/virtualizing proxies to let container OSes feel like they have access to hardware. Immense NIH is both daunting but also kinda cool, see https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-library/guides/containers/containers-and-vms/ https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-library/guide...

bassdart 2y ago

> Apps with the REQUEST_DELETE_PACKAGES permission can call the PackageInstaller requestArchive method to request archiving a currently installed app package, which removes the APK and any cached files, but persists user data. Why do they call it archiving, it looks like it's just executing pm uninstall -k to keep the user data? So this is at least a step into the right direction, how uninstalling was handled since decades: Never ever fiddle with user data on uninstall! > users will see a UI treatment to highlight that those apps are archived. If a user taps on an archived app, the responsible installer will get a request to unarchive it What happens if one tries to start an "archived" app which isn't available on the store anymore? Correection: pm unstall -k also keeps the app cache which could, according to <https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1ayheuf/is_there_a_privacy_benefit_to_using_adb_to/krv66np/ https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1ayheuf/is_there_a...>, be a problem when reinstalling an app. So I assume pm uninstall uses a new parameter or even a completely new command in Android 15 for archiving.