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> NYTs site is stellar. It’s fast and gorgeous and the articles are well-written and not full of clickbait and SEO spam You may be operating on a model of the

> NYTs site is stellar. It’s fast and gorgeous and the articles are well-written and not full of clickbait and SEO spam You may be operating on a model of the New York Times from ten or more years ago. I know I often find myself resorting to this model, at least until I remind myself that it no longer reflects reality. Here are some of the headlines on the New York Times front page right now: The Troubling Trend in Teenage Sex Ocasio-Cortez Never Steered Money to a Key Arm of Her Party. Until Now. New Zealanders Are Crazy for This Fruit. It’s Not the Kiwi. Salt Is Hiding Everywhere. Can You Spot It? What’s the Best Way to Get Rid of a Hangnail? Where to Buy Plants Online

scarab92 3y ago
Unfortunately the more news-worthy stories also suffer from a severe lack of viewpoint diversity. Audiences are already very familiar with the ideological narratives emanating from the NYT newsroom. It’s fine as flavour, but the NYT are so heavy handed with it that often the substance of the articles are distorted to fit the narrative.
- spondylosaurus 3y ago
  Which "ideological narratives"? This is such a vague description that you could interpret it to mean anything, especially since the NYT has been getting blasted from all directions lately. Conservatives think it's left-leaning drivel, and progressives think it capitulates too much to viewpoints on the right.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Progressives are 6% of the population: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/progressive-left/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/progressive-.... The NYT could be very left leaning and still get criticism from a small percentage of the population that’s even further left. One example: the NYT fired its opinion page editor for publishing an article by Tom Cotton calling to suppress the George Floyd riots with the National Guard. For context, calling in the Maryland National Guard to stop the Freddie Gray riots was one of the most popular things Larry Hogan ever did in that blue state. Cotton’s opinion was squarely in the mainstream, and by firing Bennett the NYT revealed itself to be quite far to the left. Another example is anything touching on affirmative action. Americans oppose taking race into account in hiring to increase diversity by a 3:1 margin. It’s an extremely unpopular and out-of-the-mainstream position. But the NYT engages in such hiring practices. And when you read the NYT’s coverage of such issues, including the supreme court’s decision in SFFA, it’s clear where the paper’s bias lies. This bias manifests in the way articles talk about events. For one thing, it’s quite obvious from the tone of the article what the author thinks about particular policies or events. An article about Biden’s declining support among minorities, for example, might be framed as a bad thing, instead of a positive development. You will also get selective use of what policies are labeled as “liberal” or “conservative.” Restricting abortion gets labeled as a “conservative” position (which it is), but affirmative action doesn’t get labeled as a “liberal position (which it is). You’ll also see a difference in when public opinion polling is disclosed. Articles on Dobbs heavily featured public opinion in favor of legalized abortion. But articles in SFFA usually didn’t mention longstanding polling opposing racial preferences.
    - doctor_eval 3y ago
      Your link is to “progressive left”, a subcategory that makes your claim of 6% extremely misleading. A much broader picture can be seen at https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-typology-comparison-2021/gender https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-...
      - rayiner 3y ago
        The other subcategories on the left are “establishment liberals,” “democratic mainstays,” and “outsider left.” Those other categories include my dad, who votes Democrat but thinks CNN is “Democrat propaganda.” Then there’s the 42% of democrats who are even further to the right and watch Fox News: https://www.foxnews.com/media/fox-news-democrats-key-demo https://www.foxnews.com/media/fox-news-democrats-key-demo. None of those folks are saying the NYT is too far to the right. The folks who got Bennett fired were indeed part of a very small minority of the left, which doesn’t even carry a majority within mainstream left-leaning organizations like the NYT. They’re just effective at weaponizing rhetoric to beat establishment liberals into submission.
- tipsydoo 3y ago
  These complaints are always funny to me, because the "viewpoint diversity" referred to is usually right-wing rhetoric which not only already has a voice in NYT, but also has several dedicated outlets that are elevated to "paper of record" sources among conservatives. What doesn't get much play is, say, PoC and lower class youth perspectives on topics like foreign affairs and economics. There a plenty of eloquent voices among that cohort (that you should have to be eloquent to be heard), but that would disrupt the manufactured consensus around what government and private enterprise do here and abroad. If that's what you're arguing we should be hearing more of from the NYT, though, I'm all for it. Not, say, another half-baked article about "crime waves" so that the NYPD can get another billion in overtime or whatever. Or, on the hysterically liberal side, not another article about "Biden wiping out student loan debt [which he was obligated to do under already existing statute]."
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Would you recognize a “PoC” viewpoint if you read it? I mean the term itself is a fake label that is basically only used by white people and elite non-whites who must navigate white spaces and institutions. My whole family is non-white immigrants, and I never even heard the term “PoC” until I went to graduate school and encountered far left white people. I think you probably have to be in the leftmost 10-15% of the political spectrum to use “PoC” unironically. The funny thing is that, insofar as you’re talking about what the US is doing “abroad,” I’m very plugged into that political sentiment, since my home country was on the receiving end of some stupid American foreign policy choices, and my dad works in international development. I know lots of Nigerians, Palestinians, etc., but nobody would call themselves “PoC.” It’s an utterly non-sensical and reductive label. The NYT certainly platforms self-identified “PoC,” but as far as I can tell, their viewpoints are limited to ones that flatter white liberal NYT readers. Would the NYT ever platform all the Bangladeshis I know that begrudgingly credit Trump for pulling out of Afghanistan or opposing the war in Ukraine? Would they publish my parents, who think affirmative action is a threat to Asians and want the state department to stop flying pride flags in Muslim countries? And would you even recognize that as a genuine “PoC” view if you read it?
    - 3y ago
bradrn 3y ago
The New York Times is not a news site I regularly read, but I see quite a different set of headlines highlighted on the front page: Johnson, With His Job Under Threat, Gets a Lifeline From Trump Biden Wipes Out Another $7.4 Billion in Student Loan Debt 5 People Killed in Stabbing at Busy Mall in Sydney, Australia Campaign Puts Trump and the Spy Agencies on Collision Course Republican Women Are Divided on Abortion as Bans Spread Ocasio-Cortez Never Steered Money to a Key Arm of Her Party. Until Now. You also list one of these (the last), but the others seem fairly standard things that a newspaper would report, and not clickbait rubbish at all.
- valleyer 3y ago
  I agree that they write a lot of normal headlines, like most of the ones you list. I take issue with the last one (and others like it) because of its intentional coyness in an attempt to get you to click through. I've been seeing this more and more from them lately, and the kindest thing I can say about it is that it does not befit a newspaper like theirs.
jamincan 3y ago
I too have a very different New York Times: Top Stories: Biden Shrinks Trump’s Edge in Latest Times/Siena Poll At Least 6 Dead in a Mall Stabbing That Horrifies Australians China Had a ‘Special Place’ in Modi’s Heart. Now It’s a Thorn in His Side. The O.J. Simpson Trial Served as a Landmark for Domestic Violence Awareness And then there's side bar and below the fold type stories. Generally still leaning very heavily on the news/politics side though.
HWR_14 3y ago
It's disingenuous to claim those are "front page" stories. The NYT main webpage has the first pages of the different paper sections as you scroll down. The "front page", or most important news of the news site , is at the top, which is exclusively (right now) dealing with US politics, an Australian attack, the Middle East and Chinese/Indian foreign policy. Meanwhile, to get to the hangnail article you have to scroll 75-80% of the way down. Past the other news, the op-eds, the sports, all the way to the lifestyle section and right before the cooking section.
- cush 3y ago
  Seriously though. This is trivial to fact check…
HDThoreaun 3y ago
Half of those are opinion pieces which are never on the front page.
cush 3y ago
> You may be operating on a model of the New York Times from ten or more years ago What the heck does that even mean? A decade ago, NYT wasn’t behind an paywall. But even then, are you implying that my version of NYT is a decade old, or is my “operating model” of NYT my perception of the site? Either way, what you’re saying makes zero sense. I opened it right now and it isn’t what you’re describing. Most of the headlines you posted were never on the front page. Here’s what it shows right now: Iran Fires Over 200 Drones and Missiles at Israel in Retaliatory Strike Biden Shrinks Trump’s Edge in Latest Times/Siena Poll A Closer Look at a Slight Shift in the Polls China Had a ‘Special Place’ in Modi’s Heart. Now It’s a Thorn in His Side. In Ukraine’s West, Draft Dodgers Run, and Swim, to Avoid the War

scarab92 3y ago

Unfortunately the more news-worthy stories also suffer from a severe lack of viewpoint diversity. Audiences are already very familiar with the ideological narratives emanating from the NYT newsroom. It’s fine as flavour, but the NYT are so heavy handed with it that often the substance of the articles are distorted to fit the narrative.

spondylosaurus 3y ago
Which "ideological narratives"? This is such a vague description that you could interpret it to mean anything, especially since the NYT has been getting blasted from all directions lately. Conservatives think it's left-leaning drivel, and progressives think it capitulates too much to viewpoints on the right.
- rayiner 3y ago
  Progressives are 6% of the population: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/progressive-left/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/progressive-.... The NYT could be very left leaning and still get criticism from a small percentage of the population that’s even further left. One example: the NYT fired its opinion page editor for publishing an article by Tom Cotton calling to suppress the George Floyd riots with the National Guard. For context, calling in the Maryland National Guard to stop the Freddie Gray riots was one of the most popular things Larry Hogan ever did in that blue state. Cotton’s opinion was squarely in the mainstream, and by firing Bennett the NYT revealed itself to be quite far to the left. Another example is anything touching on affirmative action. Americans oppose taking race into account in hiring to increase diversity by a 3:1 margin. It’s an extremely unpopular and out-of-the-mainstream position. But the NYT engages in such hiring practices. And when you read the NYT’s coverage of such issues, including the supreme court’s decision in SFFA, it’s clear where the paper’s bias lies. This bias manifests in the way articles talk about events. For one thing, it’s quite obvious from the tone of the article what the author thinks about particular policies or events. An article about Biden’s declining support among minorities, for example, might be framed as a bad thing, instead of a positive development. You will also get selective use of what policies are labeled as “liberal” or “conservative.” Restricting abortion gets labeled as a “conservative” position (which it is), but affirmative action doesn’t get labeled as a “liberal position (which it is). You’ll also see a difference in when public opinion polling is disclosed. Articles on Dobbs heavily featured public opinion in favor of legalized abortion. But articles in SFFA usually didn’t mention longstanding polling opposing racial preferences.
  - doctor_eval 3y ago
    Your link is to “progressive left”, a subcategory that makes your claim of 6% extremely misleading. A much broader picture can be seen at https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-typology-comparison-2021/gender https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-...
    - rayiner 3y ago
      The other subcategories on the left are “establishment liberals,” “democratic mainstays,” and “outsider left.” Those other categories include my dad, who votes Democrat but thinks CNN is “Democrat propaganda.” Then there’s the 42% of democrats who are even further to the right and watch Fox News: https://www.foxnews.com/media/fox-news-democrats-key-demo https://www.foxnews.com/media/fox-news-democrats-key-demo. None of those folks are saying the NYT is too far to the right. The folks who got Bennett fired were indeed part of a very small minority of the left, which doesn’t even carry a majority within mainstream left-leaning organizations like the NYT. They’re just effective at weaponizing rhetoric to beat establishment liberals into submission.
tipsydoo 3y ago
These complaints are always funny to me, because the "viewpoint diversity" referred to is usually right-wing rhetoric which not only already has a voice in NYT, but also has several dedicated outlets that are elevated to "paper of record" sources among conservatives. What doesn't get much play is, say, PoC and lower class youth perspectives on topics like foreign affairs and economics. There a plenty of eloquent voices among that cohort (that you should have to be eloquent to be heard), but that would disrupt the manufactured consensus around what government and private enterprise do here and abroad. If that's what you're arguing we should be hearing more of from the NYT, though, I'm all for it. Not, say, another half-baked article about "crime waves" so that the NYPD can get another billion in overtime or whatever. Or, on the hysterically liberal side, not another article about "Biden wiping out student loan debt [which he was obligated to do under already existing statute]."
- rayiner 3y ago
  Would you recognize a “PoC” viewpoint if you read it? I mean the term itself is a fake label that is basically only used by white people and elite non-whites who must navigate white spaces and institutions. My whole family is non-white immigrants, and I never even heard the term “PoC” until I went to graduate school and encountered far left white people. I think you probably have to be in the leftmost 10-15% of the political spectrum to use “PoC” unironically. The funny thing is that, insofar as you’re talking about what the US is doing “abroad,” I’m very plugged into that political sentiment, since my home country was on the receiving end of some stupid American foreign policy choices, and my dad works in international development. I know lots of Nigerians, Palestinians, etc., but nobody would call themselves “PoC.” It’s an utterly non-sensical and reductive label. The NYT certainly platforms self-identified “PoC,” but as far as I can tell, their viewpoints are limited to ones that flatter white liberal NYT readers. Would the NYT ever platform all the Bangladeshis I know that begrudgingly credit Trump for pulling out of Afghanistan or opposing the war in Ukraine? Would they publish my parents, who think affirmative action is a threat to Asians and want the state department to stop flying pride flags in Muslim countries? And would you even recognize that as a genuine “PoC” view if you read it?
  - 3y ago

bradrn 3y ago

The New York Times is not a news site I regularly read, but I see quite a different set of headlines highlighted on the front page: Johnson, With His Job Under Threat, Gets a Lifeline From Trump Biden Wipes Out Another $7.4 Billion in Student Loan Debt 5 People Killed in Stabbing at Busy Mall in Sydney, Australia Campaign Puts Trump and the Spy Agencies on Collision Course Republican Women Are Divided on Abortion as Bans Spread Ocasio-Cortez Never Steered Money to a Key Arm of Her Party. Until Now. You also list one of these (the last), but the others seem fairly standard things that a newspaper would report, and not clickbait rubbish at all.

valleyer 3y ago
I agree that they write a lot of normal headlines, like most of the ones you list. I take issue with the last one (and others like it) because of its intentional coyness in an attempt to get you to click through. I've been seeing this more and more from them lately, and the kindest thing I can say about it is that it does not befit a newspaper like theirs.

jamincan 3y ago

I too have a very different New York Times: Top Stories: Biden Shrinks Trump’s Edge in Latest Times/Siena Poll At Least 6 Dead in a Mall Stabbing That Horrifies Australians China Had a ‘Special Place’ in Modi’s Heart. Now It’s a Thorn in His Side. The O.J. Simpson Trial Served as a Landmark for Domestic Violence Awareness And then there's side bar and below the fold type stories. Generally still leaning very heavily on the news/politics side though.

HWR_14 3y ago

It's disingenuous to claim those are "front page" stories. The NYT main webpage has the first pages of the different paper sections as you scroll down. The "front page", or most important news of the news site , is at the top, which is exclusively (right now) dealing with US politics, an Australian attack, the Middle East and Chinese/Indian foreign policy. Meanwhile, to get to the hangnail article you have to scroll 75-80% of the way down. Past the other news, the op-eds, the sports, all the way to the lifestyle section and right before the cooking section.

cush 3y ago
Seriously though. This is trivial to fact check…

HDThoreaun 3y ago

Half of those are opinion pieces which are never on the front page.

cush 3y ago

> You may be operating on a model of the New York Times from ten or more years ago What the heck does that even mean? A decade ago, NYT wasn’t behind an paywall. But even then, are you implying that my version of NYT is a decade old, or is my “operating model” of NYT my perception of the site? Either way, what you’re saying makes zero sense. I opened it right now and it isn’t what you’re describing. Most of the headlines you posted were never on the front page. Here’s what it shows right now: Iran Fires Over 200 Drones and Missiles at Israel in Retaliatory Strike Biden Shrinks Trump’s Edge in Latest Times/Siena Poll A Closer Look at a Slight Shift in the Polls China Had a ‘Special Place’ in Modi’s Heart. Now It’s a Thorn in His Side. In Ukraine’s West, Draft Dodgers Run, and Swim, to Avoid the War