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And what was the carbon footprint increase in the areas where the batteries were manufactured?

ImaCake 2y ago
This is a shallow and ignorant opinion. Carbon footprint compared to what? Public transport, or more likely, an ICE car? 2 minutes critical thought is enough to consider this question as null.
DavidKarlas 2y ago
Ye, because fossil fuel extraction and refining for lifetime of car is all roses and sunshine.
gorgoiler 2y ago
I believe this is a question worth asking — and answering. Page 13 of this report from pro-climate MIT science advocacy group The Union of Concerned Scientists is of interest: https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cleaner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cl... It claims the manufacturing CO2 footprint for an EV would almost be identical to the footprint for a similar ICE vehicle except for the battery which does indeed increase the EV’s footprint by 15%. However they also claim that the total CO2 footprint for a 135,000 mile lifespan is still just under 50% less for an EV. This is of course due to the operational CO2 cost being much less for an EV when compared with an internal combustion engine. I don’t know how many ICE vehicles are scrapped before their time due to an EV purchase but the CO2 overhead of switching to a brand new vehicle will be recouped within a few tens of thousands of miles.
- merek 2y ago
  The lower EV total CO2 footprint is based on current grid CO2 emissions (page 13): > We use U.S. average electricity grid emissions to estimate manufacturing emissions, while the average electricity grid emissions intensity during vehicle operation are based on a sales-weighted average of where EVs are being sold today. If the grid is supplied by a growing proportion of renewables + lower CO2 sources over time, the lifetime CO2 footprint of EVs should decline further.
  - gorgoiler 2y ago
    EVs with an efficiency of 150Wh/km charged from a grid that only pollutes at 100g/kWh (eg Brazil, Canada) have a footprint as small as 15g/km. The US grid is 4x dirtier than that but 60g/km still doesn’t come close to 180g-200g/km of an ICE doing 8l-9l/100km (25-30 mpg.)
dilyevsky 2y ago
EPA has specifically addressed this in their EV FAQ because it’s such a common dig: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth2 https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myt... This was discussed previously and the consensus was that break-even point with ICE is around 20k miles which is not a lot
- steelframe 2y ago
  I'm not sure we should be celebrating EVs when we could have done much more with public transportation and micromobility. Given that they have 90kWh battery packs, I don't think many of the Jaguar I-PACEs in my area have even hit the "break-even" CO2 point when their owners are now trying to unload them. For some of these cars it's taken 5 years to get to just 25k miles. https://www.kbb.com/cars-for-sale/all/jaguar/i-pace/seattle-wa?category=suv&istoplink=false&newSearch=true&zip=98101 https://www.kbb.com/cars-for-sale/all/jaguar/i-pace/seattle-... My e-bike with a .36kWh battery pack has done far, far more for the environment than any EV ever will.
  - ac29 2y ago
    Picking a Jaguar is a little disingenuous as luxury cars like that are often sold fairly quickly as their owners can afford to buy/lease new cars more or less as often as they would like. Unless they are going straight to landfill for some reason, their lifetime should be longer than their ICE equivalents since they are simpler machines and much easier to do maintenance on.
  - dilyevsky 2y ago
    > I don't think many of the Jaguar I-PACEs in my area have even hit the "break-even" CO2 point when their owners are now trying to unload them. For some of these cars it's taken 5 years to get to just 25k miles. That’s a silly example and I dont see how it invalidates anything in my comment. Those are leisure vehicles, do you really believe someone will pick an ebike or a bus to go on a Sunday ride along the coast?

This is a shallow and ignorant opinion. Carbon footprint compared to what? Public transport, or more likely, an ICE car? 2 minutes critical thought is enough to consider this question as null.

DavidKarlas 2y ago

Ye, because fossil fuel extraction and refining for lifetime of car is all roses and sunshine.

gorgoiler 2y ago

I believe this is a question worth asking — and answering. Page 13 of this report from pro-climate MIT science advocacy group The Union of Concerned Scientists is of interest: https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cleaner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cl... It claims the manufacturing CO2 footprint for an EV would almost be identical to the footprint for a similar ICE vehicle except for the battery which does indeed increase the EV’s footprint by 15%. However they also claim that the total CO2 footprint for a 135,000 mile lifespan is still just under 50% less for an EV. This is of course due to the operational CO2 cost being much less for an EV when compared with an internal combustion engine. I don’t know how many ICE vehicles are scrapped before their time due to an EV purchase but the CO2 overhead of switching to a brand new vehicle will be recouped within a few tens of thousands of miles.

merek 2y ago
The lower EV total CO2 footprint is based on current grid CO2 emissions (page 13): > We use U.S. average electricity grid emissions to estimate manufacturing emissions, while the average electricity grid emissions intensity during vehicle operation are based on a sales-weighted average of where EVs are being sold today. If the grid is supplied by a growing proportion of renewables + lower CO2 sources over time, the lifetime CO2 footprint of EVs should decline further.
- gorgoiler 2y ago
  EVs with an efficiency of 150Wh/km charged from a grid that only pollutes at 100g/kWh (eg Brazil, Canada) have a footprint as small as 15g/km. The US grid is 4x dirtier than that but 60g/km still doesn’t come close to 180g-200g/km of an ICE doing 8l-9l/100km (25-30 mpg.)

dilyevsky 2y ago

EPA has specifically addressed this in their EV FAQ because it’s such a common dig: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth2 https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myt... This was discussed previously and the consensus was that break-even point with ICE is around 20k miles which is not a lot

steelframe 2y ago
I'm not sure we should be celebrating EVs when we could have done much more with public transportation and micromobility. Given that they have 90kWh battery packs, I don't think many of the Jaguar I-PACEs in my area have even hit the "break-even" CO2 point when their owners are now trying to unload them. For some of these cars it's taken 5 years to get to just 25k miles. https://www.kbb.com/cars-for-sale/all/jaguar/i-pace/seattle-wa?category=suv&istoplink=false&newSearch=true&zip=98101 https://www.kbb.com/cars-for-sale/all/jaguar/i-pace/seattle-... My e-bike with a .36kWh battery pack has done far, far more for the environment than any EV ever will.
- ac29 2y ago
  Picking a Jaguar is a little disingenuous as luxury cars like that are often sold fairly quickly as their owners can afford to buy/lease new cars more or less as often as they would like. Unless they are going straight to landfill for some reason, their lifetime should be longer than their ICE equivalents since they are simpler machines and much easier to do maintenance on.
- dilyevsky 2y ago
  > I don't think many of the Jaguar I-PACEs in my area have even hit the "break-even" CO2 point when their owners are now trying to unload them. For some of these cars it's taken 5 years to get to just 25k miles. That’s a silly example and I dont see how it invalidates anything in my comment. Those are leisure vehicles, do you really believe someone will pick an ebike or a bus to go on a Sunday ride along the coast?