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House Votes to Extend–and Expand–A Major US Spy Program
- multimoon 3y agoFantastic. As an American citizen this is exactly what I voted for and wanted. (/s) Awesome that it’s bipartisan too
- barbazoo 3y agoIs this as wild as it seems? It sounds like a free for all in terms of getting communications data from all US residents. I hope it's clear what "between Americans and foreigners overseas" means and that it doesn't include simply messages going through a foreign server at some point or something like that.
- noman-land 3y agoIt means any outbound request that is destined for a non-US IP address.
- yazzku 3y agoThat is exactly what this is about. And no, the distinction isn't clear/made.
- deciplex 3y agoOur institutions of government are so far removed from democratic control at this point that the content of this bill hardly even matters in the first place: they'll just break the "law" with impunity anyway, if Congress can't deliver what they want.
- spicykraken 3y agoHow did we get here? I don't know any sane citizen that would want this.
- zdragnar 3y agoThis version is substantially better than the previous versions that didn't pass. I consider dropping the warrant requirement from the last attempt as not much of a loss, since the previous FISA applications were being rubber-stamped anyway. Forcing another vote in two years is better than the original 8, and better than the failed compromise of 5 in my book. Not as good as it should have been (not reauthorizing at all), better than it could have been.
- vundercind 3y ago1) A bad system of elections that tends to result in only two viable parties that substantially differ in policy positions from their own voters. Our system of elections drives that outcome. 2) Cowardice. Being personally punished (say, by losing an election) for problems caused by too much spying or too much military spending or too much surveillance is vanishingly unlikely. Being punished because something bad happens and maybe that thing you voted against would have prevented it? That’s possible. 3) Probably blackmail campaigns by various law enforcement and spy agencies, aimed at politicians. I very much doubt that sort of thing stopped after Hoover was gone, or that the FBI was the only agency to engage in it. I guess the “how we got here” for this part is failing to aggressively dismantle the whole tainted edifice and start from scratch back when that was feasible, and failure to keep those agencies on an extremely tight leash.
- NegativeLatency 3y ago4) The amount of money and corruption in politics means that the people who are better at sucking up to donors end up winning. These people are also not really interested in governing, but are interested in accumulating wealth and power.
- lapcat 3y ago> Being punished because something bad happens and maybe that thing you voted against would have prevented it? That’s possible. Do you have any examples of this? Nobody was politically punished for allowing 9/11 to happen. There are countless examples of bad things happening for which nobody was politically punished. As far as I see, there's an almost complete lack of consequences in politics.
- pkage 3y agohttps://archive.is/k8v22 https://archive.is/k8v22
- Georgelemental 3y agoThey are voting to reconsider this on Monday. Call your rep at (202) 224-3121
- derbOac 3y agoreconsider?
- Georgelemental 3y agohttps://x.com/chiproytx/status/1778865117142089875 https://x.com/chiproytx/status/1778865117142089875
- karma_pharmer 3y agoThe purpose of a Motion to Reconsider is to delay an approved motion from taking effect until the end of the following business day if an absentee can be convinced to join the quorum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconsideration_of_a_motion#Legislative_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconsideration_of_a_motion#Le... Here is the roll call on the 212-212 tie vote on the Biggs Amendment which would require a warrant: https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2024114 https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2024114 Thirteen members did not vote on that roll call. Any one of them could tip the balance: Babin Republican Texas Not Voting Gallego Democratic Arizona Not Voting González-Colón Republican Puerto Rico Not Voting Grijalva Democratic Arizona Not Voting Lesko Republican Arizona Not Voting Luetkemeyer Republican Missouri Not Voting Mooney Republican West Virginia Not Voting Payne Democratic New Jersey Not Voting Perez Democratic Washington Not Voting Plaskett Democratic Virgin Islands Not Voting Radewagen Republican American Samoa Not Voting Strickland Democratic Washington Not Voting Wittman Republican Virginia Not Voting All but one of these representatives did not vote at all today, which means they are likely not in Washington. Hopefully one or more can be convinced to fly there in the next 48 hours. The exception is Marie Gluesenkamp Perez, who was on the floor today and voted on every measure except the Biggs Amendment. This means she effectively voted against it. Her district covers the southwestern part of Washington State (Pacific, Chehailis, Lewis, Clark, Skamania, Wahkiakum, and Cowlitz Counties). If you live there, give her a call at (202) 225-3536 (from here: https://clerk.house.gov/Members/G000600 https://clerk.house.gov/Members/G000600 )
- akira2501 3y ago“The United States is at its greatest risk of terrorism in more than a decade following the horrific October 7th attack on Israel, and the [intelligence community] must focus attention and resources on that threat while continuing to stay ahead of China,” Wouldn't the point of an "intelligence" service be to _prevent_ terrorist attacks? Then again, that would apparently frustrate their efforts at increasing their budget and access to American's data without a warrant. Well, as long as we're keeping pace with China, I guess. What an absurdly ridiculous bullying narrative.
- dgfitz 3y ago> Wouldn't the point of an "intelligence" service be to _prevent_ terrorist attacks? Your frustration is clouding your judgment. The purpose of an intelligence service is to gather intelligence. Preventing acts of terrorism would be the mission of the Bureau of Counterterrorism, among others. People bitch here on a constant basis about US 3-letter agencies. Which is fine I suppose, but the amount of bullshit FUD surrounding the bitching is almost embarrassing.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Lochleg 3y agoThe tragedy of 9/11 was cited as a failure of the intelligence community as a whole, primary the TLAs, to work together. They know they are responsible, and they know they have to justify their budget in those same terms. The CIA, for one, also meddles in foreign affairs heavily. Presumably, they use active measures to dismantle terror networks. Also, it's not appropriate to view 11/7 as an attack that was hard to predict. At least, the border incursion was an eventuality that they should have been able to repel.
- dgfitz 3y ago> Presumably, they use active measures to dismantle terror networks. If you think this is a thing that happens, I’m apparently too stupid to understand what the issue is here?
- JohnMakin 3y agoIn an age where large tech companies gleefully comply to any request from the government already, or the government works with buying "public" information from data brokers to surveil US citizens without a warrant, this seems less horrible than it used to be, if only for the fact that it almost doesn't matter whether or not this passes, they already don't respect the law to begin with. We're at that phase.
- VelesDude 3y agoWhat could possibly go wrong with this? Not like it is like all the other privacy destroying legislation that is worded just vaguely enough that it can be exploited in a hundred different terrible ways. /s I'm in Australia and unfortunately where ever the US goes in this stuff we (and many others) follow behind.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sneak 3y agoThis is the legal basis (FISA Section 702) for the program known as PRISM disclosed by Ed Snowden that allows the USG to pull customer data directly from large US cloud providers without a warrant. Many regard it as plainly unconstitutional.
- 2devnull 3y ago“ and disrupt international drug cartels who are looking to smuggle fentanyl into our nation,” they said.” Just a totally absurd statement. Drug traffickers pour across the border in droves, daily. Anybody who supported this && does not support securing the border is a corrupt weasel and an enemy of Americans.
- spicykraken 3y agoWe could also, ya know... enforce our drug laws and punish folks in possession of fentanyl. But no, lets enable warrant-less spying on American citizens instead.
- Bytewave81 3y agoPossession is a victimless crime (well, the victim is yourself). Distribution is the crime.
- spicykraken 3y agoBeing strungout and shitting on the streets is a crime though, so I'd take it if they enforced that one...
- spxneo 3y agoYou are not the only victim as a drug user (unless you are a loner), people around you are impacted, you are not your best self when you are intoxicated. Distribution certainly impacts more than one person and heavy handed punishment is the best way to deter it. Possession is voting for distribution and while not as destructive as the scalability of high profit margin black market businesses. Should individuals have the freedom to vote for something that harms other individuals and society as a whole?
- naasking 3y ago> and heavy handed punishment is the best way to deter it. That sounds like an empirical statement. Evidence? > Should individuals have the freedom to vote for something that harms other individuals and society as a whole? Arguably the legitimacy of a government derives from the consent of the governed. It sounds like you have your premises backwards.
- infogulch 3y agoIs this the bill? It has a list of reps that voted: https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2024119 https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2024119
- infogulch 3y agoIt should be journalistic standard practice for every article covering a congressional vote to link to the government site that lists the votes.
- readyman 3y agoIt won't matter because we don't have a democracy. It would just result in even less people voting because there are no better options.
- infogulch 3y agoYou know, after a certain point black pill rhetoric just becomes inane and boring. "The system is bad, so just give up and do nothing." yaaaawn get up off your ass and do something instead.
- readyman 3y agoI spend at least one evening every week serving as an elected official in a political organization. I don't know who you're talking to. I made an argument. If you disagree, make one yourself. When democracy works, that's how.
- karma_pharmer 3y agoYes. Here is the roll call on the 212-212 tie vote on the Biggs Amendment which would require a warrant: https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2024114 https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2024114 Thirteen members did not vote on that roll call. There is a Motion to Reconsider on Monday. Details: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40017830 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40017830
- yazzku 3y agoThe EFF has a tool to easily reach out to reps: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/04/bad-amendments-section-702-have-failed-now-what-happens-next https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/04/bad-amendments-section...
- instagib 3y agoThey left out the part about requiring a warrant for spying on Americans on the other side of phone calls in favor of a 2 year extension instead of 5. I made a submission and comment about it with a few more links. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40014585 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40014585
- spxneo 3y agoLooking at this and the "Five Guys Program" makes me think true democracy just isn't possible just like true socialism. Yet written laws were the foundations of America. Courts are supposed uphold the constitution. Bombs were dropped all over the world to spread "democracy" even in countries that never asked for it because they were already doing fine. Democracy, socialism, ideas are seductive in the minds of the collective until it becomes warped overtime to resemble the minds of whoever is running it. In America's case its those with the most to lose or those with lot of capital. Why are they so paranoid? What do they fear? We live in a "free democratic country" yet we need to be watched all the time and not have rights that was written up long time ago as fundamental ideological tenets to prevent becoming exactly as those countries that we blame and label on mainstream media as "unfree non-democratic inhumane country"? "When you do business with authoritarian countries, you end up resembling them" quote has been realized. Sad situation for America but also the West.
- krapp 3y agoFive Eyes. "Five Guys" is a mediocre burger chain.
- impossiblefork 3y agoI think there's some truth to your view, but that rather than democracy being impossible, democracy is difficult without direct democracy. The representatives and such courts as could restrain the popular will are the dangerous bit.
- barfard 3y ago[dead]
- SamuelAdams 3y ago> Rather than begin applying for warrants, the government has circumvented the ruling in many cases, buying up GPS data from companies that consumers largely believe are tracking them purely for advertising purposes. > “They’re buying data. That’s what they’re doing,” says Warren Davidson, a Republican congressperson from Ohio. “They’re structuring markets to collect the data and they’re circumventing the Fourth Amendment. We need to turn that off.” This is also a big part of the problem, imo. It is too easy for apps to request a cocktail of permissions (including location data) when an app is installed; then users never revisit those permissions after the app is used once. Meanwhile the app is constantly tracking users locations. And selling it to third parties, which sell it to gov’t orgs. How can mobile devices be updated to make users more aware of these problems? Maybe iOS and Android can, once a month, pull up a dossier of you on an app-by-app basis or something.
- sandworm101 3y agoGrapheneOS is a good start. It isn't a complete answer, but it does put the user in a little more control.
- pmontra 3y agoIt runs only on Pixels https://grapheneos.org/faq#device-support https://grapheneos.org/faq#device-support
- sandworm101 3y agoThat is certainly a big issue, but the concept of people being able to control which OS manages their phone is something we all need.
- whatshisface 3y agoPhone bootloaders are rapidly becoming unavailable in the unlocked state due to Chinese laws that say bootloaders must be locked for their region. Pixels are the majority of the US general purpose computing market in the mobile form factor simply because they haven't unified their global product variants yet.
- bsimpson 3y ago> The government argues that Americans are not themselves being targeted and thus the wiretaps are legal. How in the fuck does this ever pass Constitutional muster? Yet another reminder that the whole system is made of people (who are fallable). Doesn't matter what the Constitution says if the Congress/courts don't enforce it. > But in a major victory for the Biden administration, House members voted down an amendment earlier in the day that would’ve imposed new warrant requirements on federal agencies accessing Americans’ 702 data. Yet another reason it's unfortunate that our choices this year are going to be the same awful ones as 2020. Too many people act like politics is a team sport. They're proud to vote for this guy's charisma/skin color or against that guy's impulsive nonsense, and then look past the very real problems of the guy they voted for. > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That tramples curiosity. I hope I'm not on the wrong side of this one. I don't know what the appropriate amount of "political" is on a clearly political post. I'm not here to argue for/against any particular candidate, but I would like to see a world where politics are approached with curiosity about solving individual issues and politicians are judged on their abilities to solve them, not which letter comes in the parenthesis after their names. The present cultishness is truly scary.
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- naasking 3y agoI'm shocked, shocked I tell you.
- webspinner 3y agoApparently some amendments were passed, and not-so-good ones! Here's an article that says which ones they were. https://cdt.org/press/u-s-house-vote-narrowly-allows-rampant-abuses-of-warrantless-spying-authority-to-continue/ https://cdt.org/press/u-s-house-vote-narrowly-allows-rampant...