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The H-1B system is voluntary indentured servitude. It’s well paid, especially by the standards of the source country. Employers love it. Visa applicants still

The H-1B system is voluntary indentured servitude. It’s well paid, especially by the standards of the source country. Employers love it. Visa applicants still find the prospect appealing, even if their experience may not be great. But the power dynamics of the situation are not that different from what a migrant lettuce picker in California has to navigate. The lettuce picker actually might have more freedom.

psychlops 3y ago
Indentured servitude is without pay by definition.
- asdasdsddd 3y ago
  People just want the vibes of words and phrases without the rigor
- Nifty3929 3y ago
  That is not the case. Indentured servitude is labor that was paid for in advance by some service provided - e.g. passage to another country. Just because payment was received in the past, or that it was in-kind, doesn't mean the labor isn't paid labor.
  - CPLX 3y ago
    You can’t quit and walk away from indentured servitude.
    - Nifty3929 3y ago
      Perhaps not, but that doesn't mean it's not paid for. And in any case, I'm sure the terms would have been different in different cases, and it probably was possible to quit if you were able to pay for your previously-rendered services in some other fashion. Of course, these are just details. Fundamentally, those indentured were held captive and forced to work. But that still doesn't make it unpaid, or involuntary for that matter. The bondage existed only to enforce the terms previously agreed to. I have no way to know, but I imagine many indentured servants were happy with the trade, though many also weren't. Lots of fraud too, with people being tricked into it. As I write, I can't help but think of student loans which have similar characteristics.
  - psychlops 3y ago
    I mean...sure...if you want to call the exchange of one service for another "pay". Even though the rest of the world uses that term for money. But what is your point, do you think it is equal to the OP's assertion?
- jandrese 3y ago
  No, that's slavery. Indentured Servitude is slightly more complex where the person is paid (poorly), but is beholden to the employer in one way or another that makes it impossible or at least impractical to seek better conditions. In the past it was debt slavery, as in you get paid but that money goes towards working off some debt that the company imposed, often unfairly. But it can also include things like holding on to your visa so if you want to ask for better working conditions or consider changing companies they can kick you out of the country.
  - psychlops 3y ago
    No, slavery is slavery. Indentured servitude is a services contract.
CPLX 3y ago
It’s not servitude they can quit any time and leave the country.
- shermantanktop 3y ago
  That's the voluntary part. Voluntarily choosing to go back, when an entire family may depend on the income, is not that voluntary. The indentured part is the extended commitment to a single employer, enforced by law, with clocks running all the time on the various phases. The servitude part is the threat of deportation that hangs over the person if they dare to question workloads or treatment. Most places don't make this obvious, but they don't have to - it is an iron fist in a velvet glove.

psychlops 3y ago

Indentured servitude is without pay by definition.

asdasdsddd 3y ago
People just want the vibes of words and phrases without the rigor
Nifty3929 3y ago
That is not the case. Indentured servitude is labor that was paid for in advance by some service provided - e.g. passage to another country. Just because payment was received in the past, or that it was in-kind, doesn't mean the labor isn't paid labor.
- CPLX 3y ago
  You can’t quit and walk away from indentured servitude.
  - Nifty3929 3y ago
    Perhaps not, but that doesn't mean it's not paid for. And in any case, I'm sure the terms would have been different in different cases, and it probably was possible to quit if you were able to pay for your previously-rendered services in some other fashion. Of course, these are just details. Fundamentally, those indentured were held captive and forced to work. But that still doesn't make it unpaid, or involuntary for that matter. The bondage existed only to enforce the terms previously agreed to. I have no way to know, but I imagine many indentured servants were happy with the trade, though many also weren't. Lots of fraud too, with people being tricked into it. As I write, I can't help but think of student loans which have similar characteristics.
- psychlops 3y ago
  I mean...sure...if you want to call the exchange of one service for another "pay". Even though the rest of the world uses that term for money. But what is your point, do you think it is equal to the OP's assertion?
jandrese 3y ago
No, that's slavery. Indentured Servitude is slightly more complex where the person is paid (poorly), but is beholden to the employer in one way or another that makes it impossible or at least impractical to seek better conditions. In the past it was debt slavery, as in you get paid but that money goes towards working off some debt that the company imposed, often unfairly. But it can also include things like holding on to your visa so if you want to ask for better working conditions or consider changing companies they can kick you out of the country.
- psychlops 3y ago
  No, slavery is slavery. Indentured servitude is a services contract.

CPLX 3y ago

It’s not servitude they can quit any time and leave the country.

shermantanktop 3y ago
That's the voluntary part. Voluntarily choosing to go back, when an entire family may depend on the income, is not that voluntary. The indentured part is the extended commitment to a single employer, enforced by law, with clocks running all the time on the various phases. The servitude part is the threat of deportation that hangs over the person if they dare to question workloads or treatment. Most places don't make this obvious, but they don't have to - it is an iron fist in a velvet glove.