10 ms·

How we built JSR

63 points by vladev 2y ago

mike256 2y ago
Why JSR (Java Specification Request)?
- jocojoco 2y ago
  JavaScript Registry
- mairusu 2y ago
  Jet Set Radiooooooo
- segfaultbuserr 2y ago
  Jump to Sub-Routine? 6800: http://www.8bit-era.cz/6800.html http://www.8bit-era.cz/6800.html 6502: http://www.6502.org/tutorials/6502opcodes.html#JSR http://www.6502.org/tutorials/6502opcodes.html#JSR PDP-11: https://programmer209.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/the-pdp-11-assembly-language/ https://programmer209.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/the-pdp-11-as... Motorola 68000: https://mrjester.hapisan.com/04_MC68/Sect05Part05/Index.html https://mrjester.hapisan.com/04_MC68/Sect05Part05/Index.html
- hagbard_c 2y ago
  Jump to New Location Saving Return Address: JSR [1] Jumps to a subroutine The address before the next instruction (PC - 1) is pushed onto the stack: first the upper byte followed by the lower byte. As the stack grows backwards, the return address is therefore stored as a little-endian number in memory. PC is set to the target address. Flags: none Addressing Mode: absolute Opcode: 20 [1] https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/6502_Assembly
vladev 2y ago
Interesting that they use Rust for most things, rather than Deno. I would've expected more dog-fooding on their part.
- internetter 2y ago
  The Javascript and Python ecosystems, somewhat ironically, have begun using rust for their tooling, because the actual language is too slow. Aside though: IMO python is good as "glue" between low level code. JS... I don't know man.
  - mxuribe 2y ago
    My dream language/environment would be something that is ubiquitous, has a straight-forward learning curve, has a REPL, and empowers dev productivity - like python - but then, if i should choose, there would be an additional straight-forward path for me to push my code thhough some compilation process in order to supercharge the performance/speed of my code - like Go or Rust, etc...Basically let me choose to employ my code as a (dynamic) script, or compiled code...sort of like some hybrid of python and Go, or python and rust, etc. but combined into a single lang./env. :-)
    - guilherme-puida 2y ago
      Common Lisp, maybe?
    - sshtml 2y ago
      I believe this is essentially the goal of Mojo [0][1], at least for ML/AI development. [0] https://www.modular.com/max/mojo https://www.modular.com/max/mojo [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35790367 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35790367
      - mxuribe 2y ago
        Another rabbit hole for me to discover! Thanks!
    - Sharlin 2y ago
      Clojure is probably closest to that right now.
lucacasonato 2y ago
Hey hey, post author here - happy to answer your questions!
lionkor 2y ago
I'm not sure what 100% uptime is supposed to mean. Zero downtime, thats like saying zero bugs - it's not going to happen. Even 99.9999% uptime would be realistic, but 100% is not happening. There are factors out of your control that you cant guarantee will not even be down 1ms per year. How do you manage 100% uptime when your db is only going to be 99.9%? The latter is almost easy, the former, even if we assume 99.99999%, really really hard. Just silly and may show that there are some unrealistic assumptions, maybe? Or maybe the team doesn't know much about reliability -- also concerning. Just target six nines and be done with it, or something. In may of last year, NPM was down to 99.8 for the month.
- paxys 2y ago
  It's a goal, not a guarantee.
  - lionkor 2y ago
    Yes, but it means nothing. If the realistic version of that goal is 99.99%, thats not very good at all. You wouldnt applaud me if I said my goal total comp was 1M, and then i went and got a job that pays 30k.
    - internetter 2y ago
      I would if you said your goal was 1M and you made 999,999
- lucacasonato 2y ago
  The SLO (objective) is an uptime of 100%. That means that we have no error budget to use for scheduled maintenance or anything of that sort. This means that we can not use software in this hot path that would require scheduled maintenance (ie a relational database that requires periodic downtime for major version upgrades). We additionally minimize risk here: no code that is written by us sits in the path that targets 100% uptime. Ie if it breaks, its due to an upstream failure within Google's web serving infrastructure. If we were to provide an SLA (an agreement, stating the minimum level of service to a customer) for this service, it would not be 100%. It would be 99.99%. This is to avoid risk. But we can still have a higher internal target than the provided SLA. If we have to make all changes in a way that requires that we do not even have 8 seconds of downtime a year (but 0 seconds of downtime), that significantly changes how you design a system and roll out changes. TLDR: SLA != SLO
danpalmer 2y ago
> So how do we make serving modules reliable? We defer the entire problem to Google Cloud. The same infrastructure that serves google.com and YouTube is used to host modules on JSR. None of our custom code sits in this hot path I work at Google and even I do this. Services like the storage backing GCS are incredibly reliable and have teams of SREs supporting them, so I offload as much as possible to services that have more dedicated support than I'm able to provide.
Caitlynmeeks 2y ago
Am I the only one here who saw the title and had hoped it was a post-mortem for Jet Set Radio? :)
- RobRivera 2y ago
  My disappointment was inconsolable and my day ruined :(
alexarena 2y ago
Curious how you’re implementing the background queue for publishing? Something custom in Rust?
- lucacasonato 2y ago
  It uses Google Cloud Tasks
Thaxll 2y ago
Just a small point but google.com and YouTube do not run on the same infra as what you see on GCP, especially if you use GKE etc... It's trivial to see because when GCP is down somehow Google and Gmail keep working.
- lucacasonato 2y ago
  We do not use GKE. The Google infra that we do use in this hot path (GFE via Google Global External Load Balancers, and Colossus via Google Cloud Storage) is the same infra that powers serving static assets for Google internal services.
ivanjermakov 2y ago
Deno continues being everything: now additionaly it is package manager, cdn, and package registry. Interop with npm kills any benefit of using it until adoption is high.
it 2y ago
I'm making an app with a Typescript+React front end and a Go back end. While in local development, I serve it with Vite. Could I use Deno in place of Vite+Node?
- it 2y ago
  It was just a search away. https://docs.deno.com/deploy/tutorials/vite https://docs.deno.com/deploy/tutorials/vite
Destiner 2y ago
> We use the excellent sqlx Rust package to handle migrations. > The JSR API server is written in Rust, using the Hyper HTTP server. It communicates with the Postgres database via the sqlx Rust crate. Looks like most of the backend is written in Rust. Must be a bummer working on a JS runtime, and not being able to test it out at such a scale.
- paxys 2y ago
  The V8 engine is written in C++ not JavaScript. Building high-level languages/tooling in lower-level system languages is a very common (and sensible) practice.
giovannibonetti 2y ago
> Reading a file takes a couple hundred nanoseconds on a modern SSD. According to "Latency Numbers Every Programmer Should Know (2020)" [1] reading even a single page from a modern SSD takes over 10 microseconds. [1] https://colin-scott.github.io/personal_website/research/interactive_latency.html https://colin-scott.github.io/personal_website/research/inte...

How we built JSR

63 points by vladev 2y ago

mike256 2y ago

Why JSR (Java Specification Request)?

jocojoco 2y ago
JavaScript Registry
mairusu 2y ago
Jet Set Radiooooooo
segfaultbuserr 2y ago
Jump to Sub-Routine? 6800: http://www.8bit-era.cz/6800.html http://www.8bit-era.cz/6800.html 6502: http://www.6502.org/tutorials/6502opcodes.html#JSR http://www.6502.org/tutorials/6502opcodes.html#JSR PDP-11: https://programmer209.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/the-pdp-11-assembly-language/ https://programmer209.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/the-pdp-11-as... Motorola 68000: https://mrjester.hapisan.com/04_MC68/Sect05Part05/Index.html https://mrjester.hapisan.com/04_MC68/Sect05Part05/Index.html
hagbard_c 2y ago
Jump to New Location Saving Return Address: JSR [1] Jumps to a subroutine The address before the next instruction (PC - 1) is pushed onto the stack: first the upper byte followed by the lower byte. As the stack grows backwards, the return address is therefore stored as a little-endian number in memory. PC is set to the target address. Flags: none Addressing Mode: absolute Opcode: 20 [1] https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/6502_Assembly

vladev 2y ago

Interesting that they use Rust for most things, rather than Deno. I would've expected more dog-fooding on their part.

internetter 2y ago
The Javascript and Python ecosystems, somewhat ironically, have begun using rust for their tooling, because the actual language is too slow. Aside though: IMO python is good as "glue" between low level code. JS... I don't know man.
- mxuribe 2y ago
  My dream language/environment would be something that is ubiquitous, has a straight-forward learning curve, has a REPL, and empowers dev productivity - like python - but then, if i should choose, there would be an additional straight-forward path for me to push my code thhough some compilation process in order to supercharge the performance/speed of my code - like Go or Rust, etc...Basically let me choose to employ my code as a (dynamic) script, or compiled code...sort of like some hybrid of python and Go, or python and rust, etc. but combined into a single lang./env. :-)
  - guilherme-puida 2y ago
    Common Lisp, maybe?
  - sshtml 2y ago
    I believe this is essentially the goal of Mojo [0][1], at least for ML/AI development. [0] https://www.modular.com/max/mojo https://www.modular.com/max/mojo [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35790367 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35790367
    - mxuribe 2y ago
      Another rabbit hole for me to discover! Thanks!
  - Sharlin 2y ago
    Clojure is probably closest to that right now.

lucacasonato 2y ago

Hey hey, post author here - happy to answer your questions!

lionkor 2y ago

I'm not sure what 100% uptime is supposed to mean. Zero downtime, thats like saying zero bugs - it's not going to happen. Even 99.9999% uptime would be realistic, but 100% is not happening. There are factors out of your control that you cant guarantee will not even be down 1ms per year. How do you manage 100% uptime when your db is only going to be 99.9%? The latter is almost easy, the former, even if we assume 99.99999%, really really hard. Just silly and may show that there are some unrealistic assumptions, maybe? Or maybe the team doesn't know much about reliability -- also concerning. Just target six nines and be done with it, or something. In may of last year, NPM was down to 99.8 for the month.

paxys 2y ago
It's a goal, not a guarantee.
- lionkor 2y ago
  Yes, but it means nothing. If the realistic version of that goal is 99.99%, thats not very good at all. You wouldnt applaud me if I said my goal total comp was 1M, and then i went and got a job that pays 30k.
  - internetter 2y ago
    I would if you said your goal was 1M and you made 999,999
lucacasonato 2y ago
The SLO (objective) is an uptime of 100%. That means that we have no error budget to use for scheduled maintenance or anything of that sort. This means that we can not use software in this hot path that would require scheduled maintenance (ie a relational database that requires periodic downtime for major version upgrades). We additionally minimize risk here: no code that is written by us sits in the path that targets 100% uptime. Ie if it breaks, its due to an upstream failure within Google's web serving infrastructure. If we were to provide an SLA (an agreement, stating the minimum level of service to a customer) for this service, it would not be 100%. It would be 99.99%. This is to avoid risk. But we can still have a higher internal target than the provided SLA. If we have to make all changes in a way that requires that we do not even have 8 seconds of downtime a year (but 0 seconds of downtime), that significantly changes how you design a system and roll out changes. TLDR: SLA != SLO

danpalmer 2y ago

> So how do we make serving modules reliable? We defer the entire problem to Google Cloud. The same infrastructure that serves google.com and YouTube is used to host modules on JSR. None of our custom code sits in this hot path I work at Google and even I do this. Services like the storage backing GCS are incredibly reliable and have teams of SREs supporting them, so I offload as much as possible to services that have more dedicated support than I'm able to provide.

Caitlynmeeks 2y ago

Am I the only one here who saw the title and had hoped it was a post-mortem for Jet Set Radio? :)

RobRivera 2y ago
My disappointment was inconsolable and my day ruined :(

alexarena 2y ago

Curious how you’re implementing the background queue for publishing? Something custom in Rust?

lucacasonato 2y ago
It uses Google Cloud Tasks

Thaxll 2y ago

Just a small point but google.com and YouTube do not run on the same infra as what you see on GCP, especially if you use GKE etc... It's trivial to see because when GCP is down somehow Google and Gmail keep working.

lucacasonato 2y ago
We do not use GKE. The Google infra that we do use in this hot path (GFE via Google Global External Load Balancers, and Colossus via Google Cloud Storage) is the same infra that powers serving static assets for Google internal services.

ivanjermakov 2y ago

Deno continues being everything: now additionaly it is package manager, cdn, and package registry. Interop with npm kills any benefit of using it until adoption is high.

it 2y ago

I'm making an app with a Typescript+React front end and a Go back end. While in local development, I serve it with Vite. Could I use Deno in place of Vite+Node?

it 2y ago
It was just a search away. https://docs.deno.com/deploy/tutorials/vite https://docs.deno.com/deploy/tutorials/vite

Destiner 2y ago

> We use the excellent sqlx Rust package to handle migrations. > The JSR API server is written in Rust, using the Hyper HTTP server. It communicates with the Postgres database via the sqlx Rust crate. Looks like most of the backend is written in Rust. Must be a bummer working on a JS runtime, and not being able to test it out at such a scale.

paxys 2y ago
The V8 engine is written in C++ not JavaScript. Building high-level languages/tooling in lower-level system languages is a very common (and sensible) practice.

giovannibonetti 2y ago

> Reading a file takes a couple hundred nanoseconds on a modern SSD. According to "Latency Numbers Every Programmer Should Know (2020)" [1] reading even a single page from a modern SSD takes over 10 microseconds. [1] https://colin-scott.github.io/personal_website/research/interactive_latency.html https://colin-scott.github.io/personal_website/research/inte...