6 ms·

Counterpoint: a friend of mine grew up in LA. His family, consisting of his parents and his brother, took a month long road trip vacation every year. They owned

Counterpoint: a friend of mine grew up in LA. His family, consisting of his parents and his brother, took a month long road trip vacation every year. They owned a home that is now valued at around $2 million. They did all this solely on his father’s income, which he earned as a public school teacher. The middle class has been gutted in the past 40 years.

swatcoder 3y ago
Counterpoint or anecdote? If you're trying to say that workers in vital industries used to have access to a stable, modest suburban lifestyle negotiated by their union and that the same can't be said now, I don't disagree. But that's a separate and compounding issue, not a competing one.
- mullingitover 3y ago
  By today's standards, being able to afford a three bedroom home in the LA metro area and raise two children on a single income, and not merely survive but be financially comfortable, isn't just a 'modest suburban lifestyle', it's an unimaginably rare privilege. Even if teachers are unionized, they aren't on the extreme high end of the income range for working class people.
  - swatcoder 3y ago
    I mean, I personallg know people who live exactly that "unimaginable" life in El Monte and Baldwin Park and Rancho Cucamunga and Van Nuys and Val Verde, so I hope you know you're exaggerating for effect. But I don't even disagree with you, as I already said. Things are hard for many people, and uncertain for many more, and in many different ways. I was talking about one of them. You're talking about one of them. Neither contradicts the other.
  - drewcoo 3y ago
    Since when are teachers working class? I had high school teachers who worked construction (working class) jobs during the summer, but that wasn't their regular work.
lurking15 3y ago
> They did all this solely on his father’s income, which he earned as a public school teacher. This has more to do with his profession and inflation than anything about halcyon days of the middle class that socialists love to talk about when it's really just a post-war phenomenon.
rufus_foreman 3y ago
40 years ago the average teacher's salary was $24,000. A hotel room was around $40. Maybe less for something like a Motel 6, but for a typical vacation hotel, $40. That's just for the room, add in gas, meals, activities and you would easily have another $40 a day. So $80/day * 30 days = $2,400. Your friend's father may have spent 1/10th of his salary on a road trip vacation every year, but that was not typical. My anecdotal experience growing up in the 70's and 80's matches the parent comment. Vacation meant driving to grandma's house. I did not take a "real" vacation until I was in my 30's. Eating at a restaurant was something you did a few times a year. Lifestyle expectations really have changed.
- mullingitover 3y ago
  They weren't touring motels, they owned a camper and were generally road tripping to camp at national parks.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Same experience here as a 70s-80s kid. We did one week-long "vacation" a summer at the Jersey Shore, drove the whole way, and shared a place with another family so we could afford it. I don't know where this expectation came from where a middle class family should be able to afford to jet off to France for two weeks staying in a luxurious hotel and visiting wineries or skiing in the Alps. That's always been travel for the very wealthy. Same experience here for restaurants, too. We ate boxed macaroni-and-cheese and canned baked beans, alternating every other day. Going to a restaurant to eat was a once-every-two-months luxury.
  - rufus_foreman 3y ago
    >> We ate boxed macaroni-and-cheese and canned baked beans, alternating every other day I still eat boxed macaroni-and-cheese a few times a month :) Although it's gluten free and I put some bacon bits in it. Fancy!

swatcoder 3y ago

Counterpoint or anecdote? If you're trying to say that workers in vital industries used to have access to a stable, modest suburban lifestyle negotiated by their union and that the same can't be said now, I don't disagree. But that's a separate and compounding issue, not a competing one.

mullingitover 3y ago
By today's standards, being able to afford a three bedroom home in the LA metro area and raise two children on a single income, and not merely survive but be financially comfortable, isn't just a 'modest suburban lifestyle', it's an unimaginably rare privilege. Even if teachers are unionized, they aren't on the extreme high end of the income range for working class people.
- swatcoder 3y ago
  I mean, I personallg know people who live exactly that "unimaginable" life in El Monte and Baldwin Park and Rancho Cucamunga and Van Nuys and Val Verde, so I hope you know you're exaggerating for effect. But I don't even disagree with you, as I already said. Things are hard for many people, and uncertain for many more, and in many different ways. I was talking about one of them. You're talking about one of them. Neither contradicts the other.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  Since when are teachers working class? I had high school teachers who worked construction (working class) jobs during the summer, but that wasn't their regular work.

lurking15 3y ago

> They did all this solely on his father’s income, which he earned as a public school teacher. This has more to do with his profession and inflation than anything about halcyon days of the middle class that socialists love to talk about when it's really just a post-war phenomenon.

rufus_foreman 3y ago

40 years ago the average teacher's salary was $24,000. A hotel room was around $40. Maybe less for something like a Motel 6, but for a typical vacation hotel, $40. That's just for the room, add in gas, meals, activities and you would easily have another $40 a day. So $80/day * 30 days = $2,400. Your friend's father may have spent 1/10th of his salary on a road trip vacation every year, but that was not typical. My anecdotal experience growing up in the 70's and 80's matches the parent comment. Vacation meant driving to grandma's house. I did not take a "real" vacation until I was in my 30's. Eating at a restaurant was something you did a few times a year. Lifestyle expectations really have changed.

mullingitover 3y ago
They weren't touring motels, they owned a camper and were generally road tripping to camp at national parks.
ryandrake 3y ago
Same experience here as a 70s-80s kid. We did one week-long "vacation" a summer at the Jersey Shore, drove the whole way, and shared a place with another family so we could afford it. I don't know where this expectation came from where a middle class family should be able to afford to jet off to France for two weeks staying in a luxurious hotel and visiting wineries or skiing in the Alps. That's always been travel for the very wealthy. Same experience here for restaurants, too. We ate boxed macaroni-and-cheese and canned baked beans, alternating every other day. Going to a restaurant to eat was a once-every-two-months luxury.
- rufus_foreman 3y ago
  >> We ate boxed macaroni-and-cheese and canned baked beans, alternating every other day I still eat boxed macaroni-and-cheese a few times a month :) Although it's gluten free and I put some bacon bits in it. Fancy!