4 ms·

> instead of a salary ranking/salary threshold Because in spite of what the law actually says, the entire purpose of the H1B visa program is and always has bee

> instead of a salary ranking/salary threshold Because in spite of what the law actually says, the entire purpose of the H1B visa program is and always has been a way to get mostly adequate people who'll work cheap.

aprilthird2021 3y ago
No, this isn't true and never was. The reason is that having a lottery is a set of tradeoffs. You sort of corruption-proof the system by not allowing rich industries to monopolize foreign talent. In exchange, since you can't use salary or terminal degree to distinguish, you kinda have to make sure abuse is tamped down as much as possible. The H1B program is extremely important in a country which has 1) an aging, shrinking population and 2) generally poor educational outcomes for its citizens compared to developed nation peers. The very fact that some of the biggest companies in the world are helmed by former H1Bs tells you how helpful of a program it really has been for the US.
- rqtwteye 3y ago
  From my observation the number of highly qualified H1Bs is a small share of the total number. Most are average or below average that are held captive by Infosys and friends.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    That is a different form of abuse from if only the rich could afford to bid. I think it is overall worse (see my other reply) - but I'll freely admit there may be some abuse I'm not aware of that makes my current alternative worse.
  - izacus 3y ago
    How did you make this observation? There's more than 500 thousand H1B holders, how did you analyze them to end up with this claim?
    - calculatte 3y ago
      And how did you analyze them to refute it? That's essentially the point. There are no "skill checks" anywhere in the system. There is no proof that any H1B holders have any skills.
    - rqtwteye 3y ago
      I made this observation by working in different companies and also looking at the statistics which companies apply for H1B. Amazon is far up and then Infosys, Tata and other body shops. Other tech companies are way down the list.
  - aprilthird2021 3y ago
    Yes that is the kind of abuse that needs to be tamped down. 100%. But the reason for the H1B system was never to let Infosys bring Indians to the US and pay them very low wages. It was to foster a welcoming environment for talented individuals, and it still does that even as it's being abused.
- bluGill 3y ago
  I wish the rich monopolize it. You really think some foreign person is key - then bid $1million/year salary to that person. You want some cheap labor, then only bid cheap and risk not getting them. Of course this is open for abuse so we need to investigate every instance of someone leaving - if we determine you were mistreating the employee then you pay them the full $1 million despite them finding a job elsewhere that might only pay $100k/year. (if they just take that lower paying job because it is interesting you are fine, but if they go for better working conditions it will cost you)
  - tivert 3y ago
    > I wish the rich monopolize it. You really think some foreign person is key - then bid $1million/year salary to that person. You want some cheap labor, then only bid cheap and risk not getting them. I don't think rich industries should monopolize it, but I definitely think they should be forced to pay more. My personal favorite solution to the H1-B problem is to keep the quotas but remove the indentured servitude aspect. You really need this person? Sponsor them, then treat them well and pay them enough to want to stay with you. Otherwise, they can just leave and get a job like someone with a green card.
  - aprilthird2021 3y ago
    > You really think some foreign person is key - then bid $1million/year salary to that person. You want some cheap labor, then only bid cheap and risk not getting them. I mean this a foolish solution that will just make industries reliant on certain specialized experts not feasible. The reality is that the majority of Americans don't even have a college degree and Americans are a shrinking, aging populace. The few left in such a field would command wages so high their output wouldn't make up the difference or make it worth hiring them. Many companies would not be viable in the US if we didn't hire foreigners in high-skilled positions.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      Then develop local experts.
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago
  >“There is no doubt,” he says, “that the [H-1B] program is a benefit to their employers, enabling them to get workers at a lower wage, and to that extent, it is a subsidy.” -- Economist Milton Freedman
  - aprilthird2021 3y ago
    Of course it's a benefit to employers and of course talented people coming from poorer countries will work for less. That doesn't mean it isn't beneficial to the country as a whole, which, as I said, suffers from an aging, shrinking population with poor educational attainment metrics. Without H1B the CEOs of many tech companies wouldn't be here just to name one important contribution from this program
    - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
      Well, that's your opinion. The way the law was written, it's pretty clear the intent was that we'd only import labor we could not get at home, and thus it would have no impact on worker wages. I think people forget that laws exist for the benefit of the people as a whole. If it's having any impact on the wages of citizens, that's clearly not in the best interest of the average US citizen.
      - aprilthird2021 3y ago
        > The way the law was written, it's pretty clear the intent was that we'd only import labor we could not get at home, and thus it would have no impact on worker wages. Yes that's why I wrote that the current process is a tradeoff which requires additional measures to prevent abuse from the Infosys type companies. But you can't expect the richest, highest paying country in the world to be able to fix its talent shortage and companies not try to take advantage of the pay discrepancy. > If it's having any impact on the wages of citizens, that's clearly not in the best interest of the average US citizen. Unfortunately this is false. There are industries where the cost of training enough American citizens to be experts enough to earnsignificant sums makes the business infeasible. I worked in an AI lab at a top University in the US. It's 90% foreign graduate students in those programs. The current AI boom couldn't happen here without this visa program, honestly. US citizens don't benefit from a stagnant economy like many European nations. They benefit from an economy with lots of businesses popping up and a robust economy. And unfortunately, since Americans are not well educated and are shrinking in number, those kind of businesses need to be staffed by the highly educated from abroad. And those people will accept less pay than US citizens would just due to upbringing abroad. No one in the world expects the pay Americans expect.
addicted 3y ago
This is not even close to reality. The reality is that the cap was set in the early 90s at a time where it far exceeded the need and hasn’t been touched since then. And domestic needs have increased while Congress refuses to pass any reform and certainly not increase the cap. A lottery is the only legal way USCIS can act to distribute the number of visas set in the early 90s to the obviously much greater need in the 2020s.

aprilthird2021 3y ago

No, this isn't true and never was. The reason is that having a lottery is a set of tradeoffs. You sort of corruption-proof the system by not allowing rich industries to monopolize foreign talent. In exchange, since you can't use salary or terminal degree to distinguish, you kinda have to make sure abuse is tamped down as much as possible. The H1B program is extremely important in a country which has 1) an aging, shrinking population and 2) generally poor educational outcomes for its citizens compared to developed nation peers. The very fact that some of the biggest companies in the world are helmed by former H1Bs tells you how helpful of a program it really has been for the US.

rqtwteye 3y ago
From my observation the number of highly qualified H1Bs is a small share of the total number. Most are average or below average that are held captive by Infosys and friends.
- bluGill 3y ago
  That is a different form of abuse from if only the rich could afford to bid. I think it is overall worse (see my other reply) - but I'll freely admit there may be some abuse I'm not aware of that makes my current alternative worse.
- izacus 3y ago
  How did you make this observation? There's more than 500 thousand H1B holders, how did you analyze them to end up with this claim?
  - calculatte 3y ago
    And how did you analyze them to refute it? That's essentially the point. There are no "skill checks" anywhere in the system. There is no proof that any H1B holders have any skills.
  - rqtwteye 3y ago
    I made this observation by working in different companies and also looking at the statistics which companies apply for H1B. Amazon is far up and then Infosys, Tata and other body shops. Other tech companies are way down the list.
- aprilthird2021 3y ago
  Yes that is the kind of abuse that needs to be tamped down. 100%. But the reason for the H1B system was never to let Infosys bring Indians to the US and pay them very low wages. It was to foster a welcoming environment for talented individuals, and it still does that even as it's being abused.
bluGill 3y ago
I wish the rich monopolize it. You really think some foreign person is key - then bid $1million/year salary to that person. You want some cheap labor, then only bid cheap and risk not getting them. Of course this is open for abuse so we need to investigate every instance of someone leaving - if we determine you were mistreating the employee then you pay them the full $1 million despite them finding a job elsewhere that might only pay $100k/year. (if they just take that lower paying job because it is interesting you are fine, but if they go for better working conditions it will cost you)
- tivert 3y ago
  > I wish the rich monopolize it. You really think some foreign person is key - then bid $1million/year salary to that person. You want some cheap labor, then only bid cheap and risk not getting them. I don't think rich industries should monopolize it, but I definitely think they should be forced to pay more. My personal favorite solution to the H1-B problem is to keep the quotas but remove the indentured servitude aspect. You really need this person? Sponsor them, then treat them well and pay them enough to want to stay with you. Otherwise, they can just leave and get a job like someone with a green card.
- aprilthird2021 3y ago
  > You really think some foreign person is key - then bid $1million/year salary to that person. You want some cheap labor, then only bid cheap and risk not getting them. I mean this a foolish solution that will just make industries reliant on certain specialized experts not feasible. The reality is that the majority of Americans don't even have a college degree and Americans are a shrinking, aging populace. The few left in such a field would command wages so high their output wouldn't make up the difference or make it worth hiring them. Many companies would not be viable in the US if we didn't hire foreigners in high-skilled positions.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Then develop local experts.
wing-_-nuts 3y ago
>“There is no doubt,” he says, “that the [H-1B] program is a benefit to their employers, enabling them to get workers at a lower wage, and to that extent, it is a subsidy.” -- Economist Milton Freedman
- aprilthird2021 3y ago
  Of course it's a benefit to employers and of course talented people coming from poorer countries will work for less. That doesn't mean it isn't beneficial to the country as a whole, which, as I said, suffers from an aging, shrinking population with poor educational attainment metrics. Without H1B the CEOs of many tech companies wouldn't be here just to name one important contribution from this program
  - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
    Well, that's your opinion. The way the law was written, it's pretty clear the intent was that we'd only import labor we could not get at home, and thus it would have no impact on worker wages. I think people forget that laws exist for the benefit of the people as a whole. If it's having any impact on the wages of citizens, that's clearly not in the best interest of the average US citizen.
    - aprilthird2021 3y ago
      > The way the law was written, it's pretty clear the intent was that we'd only import labor we could not get at home, and thus it would have no impact on worker wages. Yes that's why I wrote that the current process is a tradeoff which requires additional measures to prevent abuse from the Infosys type companies. But you can't expect the richest, highest paying country in the world to be able to fix its talent shortage and companies not try to take advantage of the pay discrepancy. > If it's having any impact on the wages of citizens, that's clearly not in the best interest of the average US citizen. Unfortunately this is false. There are industries where the cost of training enough American citizens to be experts enough to earnsignificant sums makes the business infeasible. I worked in an AI lab at a top University in the US. It's 90% foreign graduate students in those programs. The current AI boom couldn't happen here without this visa program, honestly. US citizens don't benefit from a stagnant economy like many European nations. They benefit from an economy with lots of businesses popping up and a robust economy. And unfortunately, since Americans are not well educated and are shrinking in number, those kind of businesses need to be staffed by the highly educated from abroad. And those people will accept less pay than US citizens would just due to upbringing abroad. No one in the world expects the pay Americans expect.

addicted 3y ago

This is not even close to reality. The reality is that the cap was set in the early 90s at a time where it far exceeded the need and hasn’t been touched since then. And domestic needs have increased while Congress refuses to pass any reform and certainly not increase the cap. A lottery is the only legal way USCIS can act to distribute the number of visas set in the early 90s to the obviously much greater need in the 2020s.