4 ms·

I've read the first third of the article and I didn't get what's the author's problem with Kagi. What do they care how many employees Kagi has or how much they

by yreg 3y ago

I've read the first third of the article and I didn't get what's the author's problem with Kagi. What do they care how many employees Kagi has or how much they spend on t-shirts. Then I scrolled through the rest of it and read the very last screenshot. That one looks pretty bad. > people who really need anonymity are very rare. probably less than a 100 in the entire world. definitely not typical Kagi users > unless they are criminals, in which case we don't care they don't have full anonymity (nor we want them as customers) - Kagi CEO

kklimonda 3y ago
For me, and probably a lot of other people who moved from other search engines, long-term viability of Kagi is important - heck, that's the reason I've decided it's worth paying some money for search. Given that, I'd expect them to be very frugal with their spendings. Burning money on T-shirts, on another Browser, AI "improvements", Kagi Email (wtf? first time I've heard of it) show that they have incredibly startupy mindset, and will end up like every other company that takes VC money - bloated, money focused and deaf to their community.
- Terretta 3y ago
  Every entrepreneur obsesses about some competitor or some business model. You can see various baubles glint in Vlad's eye. If you are a collection of 10x devs, you can afford to make multiple bets and test for traction. You can sample the Brave waters, or try to head off Proton claiming ownership of privacy first, or get in front of perplexity and phind. Arguably, only products you've shipped can tell you the truth about product market fit. Which is to say, I don't think these "let 1000 flowers bloom" experiments are a bad thing... so long as the core product has no appearance of inattention and never goes backwards in usability or quality while "net promotion" is still part of the growth plan.
newzisforsukas 3y ago
he should run his discord posts through a LLM for an unbiased summary of who he is as a person.
tomoyoirl 3y ago
> What do they care how many employees Kagi has or how much they spend on t-shirts. Spending a third of your round on t-shirt manufacturing equipment is possibly not the best sign of the focused leadership that will bring your company success in a difficult market.
- yreg 3y ago
  True, but what do I as a customer care? It's not like I'm building some business on their APIs or anything. If they go down, I will switch to another search engine… no need to do so preemptively from my PoV.
  - mbStavola 3y ago
    Because "going down" doesn't necessarily mean _shutting_ down-- it could be a sale as well. Considering the stated attitude towards privacy, that should worry you if privacy is your concern.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      All search engines are problematic in terms of privacy.
      - mbStavola 3y ago
        One of the main selling points of Kagi is privacy. It's featured on the main landing page, they have a page dedicated to it, and it's mentioned in pretty much every sales pitch they will make. Kagi's audience is also comprised of people who have that value as paying for a search engine means divesting from adtech surveillance. So, it does not matter that "all search engines are problematic in terms of privacy"-- this one is marketed to not be. That's why people have concerns about how serious they're taking that committment and why people would hold them to a higher standard. It's also why a sale to a company which does not respect privacy is potentially a major issue, especially if current customer data isn't being handled in the manner they had expected.
beretguy 3y ago
Definition of “criminal” can change depending on perspective. A journalist is a criminal from a perspective of an authoritarian government.
- mr_machine 3y ago
  It can also change after an election, and the impact can be retroactive. Vlad needs to walk that "criminal" comment WAY the hell back.
alchemist1e9 3y ago
> unless they are criminals, in which case we don't care they don't have full anonymity (nor we want them as customers) Christians can be labeled criminals in China. Young women try to get a 1st trimester abortion in Texas. What the hell is he talking about? Anyone with even a basic understanding of human liberty and dignity knows anonymity and free speech are bedrocks. Especially disturbing coming from someone trying to run a search engine which can collect very detailed and targeted information from users via their search history!
- Terretta 3y ago
  I have been a proponent of kagi from near inception, and have interacted with Vlad by email as well as Discord, including getting change/feature made. The core search product was (for the longest time*) a breath of fresh air, as were these interactions**. That "criminals" comment flipped my advocacy off like a light switch, for all the reasons described here in this thread. Perhaps it will get walked back. * Lately, the results seem more Bing-like, and I've even had to !g things for the first time in a year to find a non-spam result. The core product has to be 10x for people to advocate and people to switch, not just more of the same or slightly better. ** Although, I couldn't convince him to make a team plan that would effectively let me pay full price (pro or ultimate) per employee for everyone registering from a domain. I cannot fathom why he wouldn't let a company pay him for double or triple digit employees, it's free money. Plus, those employees that use it for free at the office, will get frustrated at home, and buy the family option and tell their friends... Refusing to let me cover my employee base is a weird flex for someone still counting subscribers trying to get to 25,000.
TimTheTinker 3y ago
Those who have "nothing to hide" still close their curtains at night and shut the door to the bathroom when on the toilet. Granting and fiercely protecting privacy is a simple matter of respect for your fellow human beings. Doing so also has the side effect of slowing descents into various forms of totalitarianism.
- bookofjoe 3y ago
  >Whenever there’s a conflict, the logic of security will trump the right to privacy. — Eric Schmidt, 2013
nunez 3y ago
He's right though (or at least I agree with him). Full anonymity is hard to achieve. Kagi is aiming for more privacy, I.e. a search engine and browser that doesn't track your habits or sell them to data brokers to identify you. Kagi does that very well.
- Closi 3y ago
  Eh, a founder that effectively says 'we don't care if we give away the identity of our users if they are criminals' is not totally in line with my definition of an organization focused on privacy. At least not a definition of privacy I really care about. It's very Mark Zuckerberg 2004.
  - nunez 3y ago
    I definitely agree that this comment was extremely problematic.
- 34679 3y ago
  Anonymity should be the default. I don't have any right to come peeking into your windows, or to tap your phone, even if there's a market for whatever I discover. The same should be true for online activity. And his comment about needing privacy? Name one person that needs privacy while taking a shit. Just because your desire for privacy doesn't rise to the level of need, that doesn't make it any less valid.
tokai 3y ago
Ouch. I have been on the fence about paying for Kagi for some time now. Will definitely not touch any project presided over by someone with such a viewpoint.
- wetpaws 3y ago
  Why do you care about a viewpoint of CEO if the product is good?
34679 3y ago
> unless they are criminals, in which case we don't care they don't have full anonymity (nor we want them as customers) People helping other people escape slavery were criminals.
deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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freediver 3y ago
Kagi CEO here. I'd concede that it was a bad choice of words but also the screenshot was taken out of context. What I meant to say is that anonymity and privacy are two different things and that most people really need just their privacy respected, not be truly anonymous in life. I also had a narrow view back then of what people considered by anonymity (for example considering VPNs as something giving them anonymity online).
- number6 3y ago
  Your grasp of personal information management under GDPR seems to be lacking, particularly regarding the roles and responsibilities of data controllers and what personal information are under GDPR. If you're operating within this jurisdiction, I would strongly recommend consulting with a GDPR expert. Non-compliance can lead to significant fines. Additionally, if this user were located in Europe, and he already sounds salty, were to report this to a privacy watchdog, there's a high likelihood it could result in a penalty. It might be beneficial to revisit GDPR guidelines to ensure compliance and avoid such risks.
  - freediver 3y ago
    You are correct and my confidence at the time came from the fact that we are not in the business of selling user data, do not collect it or ever need it so GDPR was not affecting us (in my mind). I had no business discussing sophisticated policy matters on a public Discord, and yet I did it in good faith open to learning something new like it happened many times on our Discord. People do this all the time. The difference is when a CEO of a company does it, it has extra weight and this is why CEOs usually do not discuss these things with users. Lesson learned.
    - eipi10_hn 3y ago
      GDPR is not just for business that "sells data". Like the above said, you would need a GDPR expert consultant to go through your whole process. It will also correlate to your country's law, not something "you can do what you think it's true". You can check Mullvad's privacy policy to see how they are handling GDPR. It's not written in "corporate words" and is very clear to me. For example, they don't even need email address to sign up but once payment comes to the table, GDPR comes - depending on which method of payment, regardless of how you insist on "no data collect": https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy The correct thing to do is transparenting that process with your legal/GDPR person.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by yreg 3y ago

kklimonda 3y ago

For me, and probably a lot of other people who moved from other search engines, long-term viability of Kagi is important - heck, that's the reason I've decided it's worth paying some money for search. Given that, I'd expect them to be very frugal with their spendings. Burning money on T-shirts, on another Browser, AI "improvements", Kagi Email (wtf? first time I've heard of it) show that they have incredibly startupy mindset, and will end up like every other company that takes VC money - bloated, money focused and deaf to their community.

Terretta 3y ago
Every entrepreneur obsesses about some competitor or some business model. You can see various baubles glint in Vlad's eye. If you are a collection of 10x devs, you can afford to make multiple bets and test for traction. You can sample the Brave waters, or try to head off Proton claiming ownership of privacy first, or get in front of perplexity and phind. Arguably, only products you've shipped can tell you the truth about product market fit. Which is to say, I don't think these "let 1000 flowers bloom" experiments are a bad thing... so long as the core product has no appearance of inattention and never goes backwards in usability or quality while "net promotion" is still part of the growth plan.

newzisforsukas 3y ago

he should run his discord posts through a LLM for an unbiased summary of who he is as a person.

tomoyoirl 3y ago

> What do they care how many employees Kagi has or how much they spend on t-shirts. Spending a third of your round on t-shirt manufacturing equipment is possibly not the best sign of the focused leadership that will bring your company success in a difficult market.

yreg 3y ago
True, but what do I as a customer care? It's not like I'm building some business on their APIs or anything. If they go down, I will switch to another search engine… no need to do so preemptively from my PoV.
- mbStavola 3y ago
  Because "going down" doesn't necessarily mean _shutting_ down-- it could be a sale as well. Considering the stated attitude towards privacy, that should worry you if privacy is your concern.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    All search engines are problematic in terms of privacy.
    - mbStavola 3y ago
      One of the main selling points of Kagi is privacy. It's featured on the main landing page, they have a page dedicated to it, and it's mentioned in pretty much every sales pitch they will make. Kagi's audience is also comprised of people who have that value as paying for a search engine means divesting from adtech surveillance. So, it does not matter that "all search engines are problematic in terms of privacy"-- this one is marketed to not be. That's why people have concerns about how serious they're taking that committment and why people would hold them to a higher standard. It's also why a sale to a company which does not respect privacy is potentially a major issue, especially if current customer data isn't being handled in the manner they had expected.

beretguy 3y ago

Definition of “criminal” can change depending on perspective. A journalist is a criminal from a perspective of an authoritarian government.

mr_machine 3y ago
It can also change after an election, and the impact can be retroactive. Vlad needs to walk that "criminal" comment WAY the hell back.

alchemist1e9 3y ago

> unless they are criminals, in which case we don't care they don't have full anonymity (nor we want them as customers) Christians can be labeled criminals in China. Young women try to get a 1st trimester abortion in Texas. What the hell is he talking about? Anyone with even a basic understanding of human liberty and dignity knows anonymity and free speech are bedrocks. Especially disturbing coming from someone trying to run a search engine which can collect very detailed and targeted information from users via their search history!

Terretta 3y ago
I have been a proponent of kagi from near inception, and have interacted with Vlad by email as well as Discord, including getting change/feature made. The core search product was (for the longest time*) a breath of fresh air, as were these interactions**. That "criminals" comment flipped my advocacy off like a light switch, for all the reasons described here in this thread. Perhaps it will get walked back. * Lately, the results seem more Bing-like, and I've even had to !g things for the first time in a year to find a non-spam result. The core product has to be 10x for people to advocate and people to switch, not just more of the same or slightly better. ** Although, I couldn't convince him to make a team plan that would effectively let me pay full price (pro or ultimate) per employee for everyone registering from a domain. I cannot fathom why he wouldn't let a company pay him for double or triple digit employees, it's free money. Plus, those employees that use it for free at the office, will get frustrated at home, and buy the family option and tell their friends... Refusing to let me cover my employee base is a weird flex for someone still counting subscribers trying to get to 25,000.

TimTheTinker 3y ago

Those who have "nothing to hide" still close their curtains at night and shut the door to the bathroom when on the toilet. Granting and fiercely protecting privacy is a simple matter of respect for your fellow human beings. Doing so also has the side effect of slowing descents into various forms of totalitarianism.

bookofjoe 3y ago
>Whenever there’s a conflict, the logic of security will trump the right to privacy. — Eric Schmidt, 2013

nunez 3y ago

He's right though (or at least I agree with him). Full anonymity is hard to achieve. Kagi is aiming for more privacy, I.e. a search engine and browser that doesn't track your habits or sell them to data brokers to identify you. Kagi does that very well.

Closi 3y ago
Eh, a founder that effectively says 'we don't care if we give away the identity of our users if they are criminals' is not totally in line with my definition of an organization focused on privacy. At least not a definition of privacy I really care about. It's very Mark Zuckerberg 2004.
- nunez 3y ago
  I definitely agree that this comment was extremely problematic.
34679 3y ago
Anonymity should be the default. I don't have any right to come peeking into your windows, or to tap your phone, even if there's a market for whatever I discover. The same should be true for online activity. And his comment about needing privacy? Name one person that needs privacy while taking a shit. Just because your desire for privacy doesn't rise to the level of need, that doesn't make it any less valid.

tokai 3y ago

Ouch. I have been on the fence about paying for Kagi for some time now. Will definitely not touch any project presided over by someone with such a viewpoint.

wetpaws 3y ago
Why do you care about a viewpoint of CEO if the product is good?

34679 3y ago

> unless they are criminals, in which case we don't care they don't have full anonymity (nor we want them as customers) People helping other people escape slavery were criminals.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

freediver 3y ago

Kagi CEO here. I'd concede that it was a bad choice of words but also the screenshot was taken out of context. What I meant to say is that anonymity and privacy are two different things and that most people really need just their privacy respected, not be truly anonymous in life. I also had a narrow view back then of what people considered by anonymity (for example considering VPNs as something giving them anonymity online).

number6 3y ago
Your grasp of personal information management under GDPR seems to be lacking, particularly regarding the roles and responsibilities of data controllers and what personal information are under GDPR. If you're operating within this jurisdiction, I would strongly recommend consulting with a GDPR expert. Non-compliance can lead to significant fines. Additionally, if this user were located in Europe, and he already sounds salty, were to report this to a privacy watchdog, there's a high likelihood it could result in a penalty. It might be beneficial to revisit GDPR guidelines to ensure compliance and avoid such risks.
- freediver 3y ago
  You are correct and my confidence at the time came from the fact that we are not in the business of selling user data, do not collect it or ever need it so GDPR was not affecting us (in my mind). I had no business discussing sophisticated policy matters on a public Discord, and yet I did it in good faith open to learning something new like it happened many times on our Discord. People do this all the time. The difference is when a CEO of a company does it, it has extra weight and this is why CEOs usually do not discuss these things with users. Lesson learned.
  - eipi10_hn 3y ago
    GDPR is not just for business that "sells data". Like the above said, you would need a GDPR expert consultant to go through your whole process. It will also correlate to your country's law, not something "you can do what you think it's true". You can check Mullvad's privacy policy to see how they are handling GDPR. It's not written in "corporate words" and is very clear to me. For example, they don't even need email address to sign up but once payment comes to the table, GDPR comes - depending on which method of payment, regardless of how you insist on "no data collect": https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy The correct thing to do is transparenting that process with your legal/GDPR person.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]