4 ms·

So, i have a house in Haliburton Ontario. Historically we drop a cool $3k a year on propane. Last year we installed a Mitsubishi hyper heat ductless system. W

by verelo 3y ago

So, i have a house in Haliburton Ontario. Historically we drop a cool $3k a year on propane. Last year we installed a Mitsubishi hyper heat ductless system. We used zero gas this year. Read it again, zero. It’s lakefront, very remote, and the largest electricity bill i got was around $450 for a month and then they dropped back to something more like $250. The savings are huge, I’m no longer stressed about running out of gas…and the heat pump performed well beyond its advertised specifications. We had a few -25C days and it was humming hard, but the house stayed a comfortable 20C inside. The house is around 3000sqft and we didn’t even get the largest unit, i can’t stress enough that they actually operate better than advertised. We would run a fire from time to time but we did that with propane too, it’s mostly ornamental. https://photos.app.goo.gl/FCwLJQAtoG67g9y86 https://photos.app.goo.gl/FCwLJQAtoG67g9y86 https://photos.app.goo.gl/TwiMaSAj9hGxYqby6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/TwiMaSAj9hGxYqby6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/gYVYvVEB3whLCv1dA https://photos.app.goo.gl/gYVYvVEB3whLCv1dA https://photos.app.goo.gl/49RcBdBuUZ2jVN3J7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/49RcBdBuUZ2jVN3J7

Siecje 3y ago
That's a lot of lines going to the outdoor unit. Is there two per indoor head?
- matthiaswh 3y ago
  It looks like that unit may have 3 indoor heads. Two lines per head. Power to each head. Power to the outdoor unit.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Looks like it. I'd suggest anyone looking at a system like that install at least 2 separate outdoor units. That way if one breaks the other can still work - and most of the year it will be powerful enough to handle the whole house (some rooms will be a little uncomfortable but bearable)
    - verelo 3y ago
      This is correct, 3 heads. One on each level of the house.
jefftk 3y ago
It's worth running the numbers based on your particular utility costs, though. In our case, with somewhat expensive gas and very expensive electricity, the heat pump would have cost quite a bit more to run: https://www.jefftk.com/p/running-the-numbers-on-a-heat-pump https://www.jefftk.com/p/running-the-numbers-on-a-heat-pump
- stephen_g 3y ago
  With an air-to-water system like a Vaillant aroTHERM plus you could possibly achieve your break-even COP of 4.5 (the 12kW unit costs about US$7,200 in Europe, although from what I hear about the US heat pump market you'd probably pay like $20K for the unit alone for some reason). (Also, how do you guys function with those strange units? Therms, BTU/hr, etc. - all so confusing. Surely electrification and the shift to heat pumps could be a convenient excuse to start using watts (kW in this magnitude) for heat and joules (usually MJ) for gas!)
  - jefftk 3y ago
    I do think an air-to-water could make sense for us, though it wouldn't be able to handle the coldest days because our radiators aren't sized to keep the house warm at the lower water temperatures it puts out. The main problem is figuring out who can install one, since it's a pretty unusual product here. (You get used to whatever units you're using, and the US units make some calculations easier and others harder. If I could switch it all over to the SI system without massive transition costs I would, though!)
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      You might be surprised at how well cast iron rads can provide comfort at low outside air temps and low flow temps. (I'm in neighboring Cambridge in an old, poorly/non-insulated house.) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39144329 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39144329 has a bit of details on the experiment I ran back in 2022 to prove 135°F flow would work for us. (If you have a condensing boiler, you can run this experiment safely; if you have a non-condensing boiler, you can run it, but not for very long as you'll be damaging the flue and boiler with condensation at these lower temps.) My outdoor reset curve (sadly, on a gas combi boiler because of the "pretty unusual product" factors) is now set to 105°F at 55°F OAT and 154°F at 0°F OAT (which is lower than the design temperature here, but it gave me more resolution to tweak the line to fit the loss just right; it's spot-on on the lower end, with the system running 22-24 hours per day when it's cold out and stays that way up until around freezing, where the utilization falls off). Matching the gain to the loss quite closely has resulted in a house that's the most comfortable since we moved in in 2007 and gas bills with the combi went down about 46% (versus a 1990s oil-to-gas conversion of a 1950s boiler, so not a realistic comparison for anything that wasn't built by General Motors [not a typo]).
itsoktocry 3y ago
>Historically we drop a cool $3k a year on propane. Similar to our situation, also in Canada; we cut our fuel bill by 3/4 after getting a heat pump. I still run the furnace on the coldest days, because it's hard to beat. But 9 days out of 10 the heat pump is all we need. The fact that it doubles as an AC unit (and is even more efficient) is gravy. I also bought a heat pump hot water tank, and so far so good.
- sentrysapper 3y ago
  Can I ask what model did you get and what part of Canada are you in? More to the point, I'm looking for a recommendation for a smaller unit to heat 750 sq ft. in Quebec.
- verelo 3y ago
  Yeah! The AC bonus is amazing. The summer gets so sticky, not anymore. We got it in around July I think, made for an amazingly comfortable August.
bregma 3y ago
I live a few 100 km east of there and just had a heat pump installed last fall. I still have to spend $800 a year on wood but now my home is 20 C all day every day and I no longer have to break the ice on the dog's water bowl in the mornings. I still fire up the stoves to keep hydro costs down and so far the hydro bills haven't been particularly different from previous years when I had to use supplementary electric resistive heat. Then again, it's been a particularly mild winter with zero days below -30. I had a Moovair with three heads installed.
- verelo 3y ago
  This winter was really mild. I was curious if we'd spend more or less, and honestly i wasn't super concerned. My napkin math suggested it would be comparable, but come with the benefit of reducing the risk we'd run out of gas. The propane truck cant make it up our road from late November early April, and last year we got down to around 20% remaining (which is around the point where the tank stops working due to there not being enough pressure). Huge bonus that its been cheaper, and substantially...but I just love relaxing about the reduced risk of the house running out of fuel.
boringg 3y ago
Did you consider putting up solar to counteract the additional electrical load? Sure it would take 7-10 years to pay off the solar asset but after that its free electricity and heating. Something I'm playing with but its a bit more difficult in the city.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

by verelo 3y ago

Siecje 3y ago

That's a lot of lines going to the outdoor unit. Is there two per indoor head?

matthiaswh 3y ago
It looks like that unit may have 3 indoor heads. Two lines per head. Power to each head. Power to the outdoor unit.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Looks like it. I'd suggest anyone looking at a system like that install at least 2 separate outdoor units. That way if one breaks the other can still work - and most of the year it will be powerful enough to handle the whole house (some rooms will be a little uncomfortable but bearable)
  - verelo 3y ago
    This is correct, 3 heads. One on each level of the house.

jefftk 3y ago

It's worth running the numbers based on your particular utility costs, though. In our case, with somewhat expensive gas and very expensive electricity, the heat pump would have cost quite a bit more to run: https://www.jefftk.com/p/running-the-numbers-on-a-heat-pump https://www.jefftk.com/p/running-the-numbers-on-a-heat-pump

stephen_g 3y ago
With an air-to-water system like a Vaillant aroTHERM plus you could possibly achieve your break-even COP of 4.5 (the 12kW unit costs about US$7,200 in Europe, although from what I hear about the US heat pump market you'd probably pay like $20K for the unit alone for some reason). (Also, how do you guys function with those strange units? Therms, BTU/hr, etc. - all so confusing. Surely electrification and the shift to heat pumps could be a convenient excuse to start using watts (kW in this magnitude) for heat and joules (usually MJ) for gas!)
- jefftk 3y ago
  I do think an air-to-water could make sense for us, though it wouldn't be able to handle the coldest days because our radiators aren't sized to keep the house warm at the lower water temperatures it puts out. The main problem is figuring out who can install one, since it's a pretty unusual product here. (You get used to whatever units you're using, and the US units make some calculations easier and others harder. If I could switch it all over to the SI system without massive transition costs I would, though!)
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    You might be surprised at how well cast iron rads can provide comfort at low outside air temps and low flow temps. (I'm in neighboring Cambridge in an old, poorly/non-insulated house.) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39144329 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39144329 has a bit of details on the experiment I ran back in 2022 to prove 135°F flow would work for us. (If you have a condensing boiler, you can run this experiment safely; if you have a non-condensing boiler, you can run it, but not for very long as you'll be damaging the flue and boiler with condensation at these lower temps.) My outdoor reset curve (sadly, on a gas combi boiler because of the "pretty unusual product" factors) is now set to 105°F at 55°F OAT and 154°F at 0°F OAT (which is lower than the design temperature here, but it gave me more resolution to tweak the line to fit the loss just right; it's spot-on on the lower end, with the system running 22-24 hours per day when it's cold out and stays that way up until around freezing, where the utilization falls off). Matching the gain to the loss quite closely has resulted in a house that's the most comfortable since we moved in in 2007 and gas bills with the combi went down about 46% (versus a 1990s oil-to-gas conversion of a 1950s boiler, so not a realistic comparison for anything that wasn't built by General Motors [not a typo]).

itsoktocry 3y ago

>Historically we drop a cool $3k a year on propane. Similar to our situation, also in Canada; we cut our fuel bill by 3/4 after getting a heat pump. I still run the furnace on the coldest days, because it's hard to beat. But 9 days out of 10 the heat pump is all we need. The fact that it doubles as an AC unit (and is even more efficient) is gravy. I also bought a heat pump hot water tank, and so far so good.

sentrysapper 3y ago
Can I ask what model did you get and what part of Canada are you in? More to the point, I'm looking for a recommendation for a smaller unit to heat 750 sq ft. in Quebec.
verelo 3y ago
Yeah! The AC bonus is amazing. The summer gets so sticky, not anymore. We got it in around July I think, made for an amazingly comfortable August.

bregma 3y ago

I live a few 100 km east of there and just had a heat pump installed last fall. I still have to spend $800 a year on wood but now my home is 20 C all day every day and I no longer have to break the ice on the dog's water bowl in the mornings. I still fire up the stoves to keep hydro costs down and so far the hydro bills haven't been particularly different from previous years when I had to use supplementary electric resistive heat. Then again, it's been a particularly mild winter with zero days below -30. I had a Moovair with three heads installed.

verelo 3y ago
This winter was really mild. I was curious if we'd spend more or less, and honestly i wasn't super concerned. My napkin math suggested it would be comparable, but come with the benefit of reducing the risk we'd run out of gas. The propane truck cant make it up our road from late November early April, and last year we got down to around 20% remaining (which is around the point where the tank stops working due to there not being enough pressure). Huge bonus that its been cheaper, and substantially...but I just love relaxing about the reduced risk of the house running out of fuel.

boringg 3y ago

Did you consider putting up solar to counteract the additional electrical load? Sure it would take 7-10 years to pay off the solar asset but after that its free electricity and heating. Something I'm playing with but its a bit more difficult in the city.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]